5.2 PTR: Single-Player Loot-Grabbing Scenario, Ghostcrawler on PvP

posted 2013/02/04 at 11:06 AM by perculia

We've got a more current preview of this scenario here, now with harmful NPCs and traps present!5.2 Single-Player Loot-Grabbing ScenarioPatch 5.2 PreviewTreasure RoomTroves of the Thunder KingStage 1 – Speak to Taoshi

You will only have a limited amount of time to gather as much treasure as you can. Speak to Taoshi when you're ready to begin.

Final Stage – Reach the Exit

Grab as much treasure as you can and reach the exit before the timer expires.

Treasure RoomIsle of ThunderWar EffortsLightning ForgeThunder, RebornSpirit of HarmonyElder Charm of Good FortuneShan'ze Ritual StoneRemember, this scenario still needs some work and the mechanics or loot tables could change before 5.2!In the Hall of the Thunder KingGhostcrawler on Class BalanceClick the cut to read all of his posts, organized by class!

Ghostcrawler

I have to agree with an earlier post about how this game should be about bringing out a good product and making it a good game. It seems more and more the justification for changes (or not making changes in this case) is the number of subs that will be lost.

Ghostcrawler

- We are reverting Cyclone having shared diminishing returns with other forms of crowd control. While we are keeping the cooldown of Cyclone cast by Feral druids in order to make Predatory Swiftness CC less dominant, we are lowering the cooldown to 20 sec from 30 sec.

If you somehow feel the energy cost is fair (impossibru :p), what if we could Maim any target? Rather than only our combo target? Kinda of like having Redirect built into Maim? Or convert Maim into a bleed, so it ignores armor and scales with Mastery? Or make it so does extra damage if the target is immune to stuns?

CycloneMaimDashyou may think you have fixed it - but you have not. Only 3 days ago on life I was pursuing a hunter - I don't have any speed bonus except the +25% from cat - my nose was almost touching his back and I still got "out of range" errors.Feline SwiftnessThe problem is the Feline Swiftness talent. It always has been. But now you're forcing feral PvP into a catch 22 situation. We're either forced to take Feline Swiftness just to stop the out of range errors when trying to use abilities, and lose our gap closer.. or we get inundated with out of range errors when trying to do anything. You know the feral hit box is still out of whack... and the feral speed bonus on the PvP set was to compensate for this.Feline SwiftnessFeline Swiftness

Ghostcrawler

- We are reverting the removal of .
Charred Glyph - now also lowers the stun duration of by 1 sec in addition to taking off the GCD.

Charred GlyphRing of FrostRing of FrostCounterspellCounterspell

Ghostcrawler

- Ring of Peace has been adjusted. It now forms a sanctuary around the friendly target, causing enemies within 8 yards to be disarmed and causes enemies who cast a harmful spell to be silenced for 3 sec. Moving out of the ring does not remove the silence, but it won't trigger again. The duration of Ring of Peace is 8 sec.
- Paralysis - duration is now 4 sec from the front / 6 sec from the back (down from 4 / 8).

Ghostcrawler

- We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Blessing of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.
If you played a Holy paladin and found your Holy Shock had a longer cooldown, and found Word of Glory had been replaced with (making this up) "Phrase of Glory" with a 2.5 sec cast time, and found that Aura Mastery no longer prevented player silences, you might find yourself a little disoriented. Those are the kinds of changes we think would be necessary to allow interrupts to sufficiently serve as a counter to healing at this point in time.

While it might seem impossible to the forum-posting contingent of our player base, we lose more players to frustration at constant class design changes than we do to perceived balance problems. We have to keep that in mind when considering any changes, even those that are ultimately better for the game in the long run.

- We knew haste would be attractive to Protection when we gave them , which only Retribution had previously. That's why we gave them . Even if you have a tanking set with no haste, there are haste buffs in the game. We wanted all the tanks to benefit somewhat from what were traditionally DPS stats, since part of the active mitigation design was to make tanks care more about hitting things with sword (and claws). It only gets to be a problem, as I said previously, if dodge and parry (which are going to be on some gear) are perceived as pointless. (They aren't pointless, but that's really beside the point at this stage.) We aren't going to reitemize every plate piece in the game to remove dodge and parry. We also don't want to nerf haste for paladins, because it is fun, and for the most part working as intended. We don't have a solution yet that we're willing to share, but that's the intent. I state all this, because I feel like this already long thread has become a bit too dominated by this one topic in the past few pages.

Are you on some sort of cheap drug when you make choices. Tanks care about these things dodge parry block armor HP. Thats all that should matter. It has always been this way in every game ever made. It is the D & D way and the correct way. When you take this focus away you lose your ability to be a lead developer and deserve to be removed from the team.

Eye for an eye baseline would be kinda cool, but it'll have to be designed really well because I don't want it breaking CCs lol. I would probably rather have something else if I had to choose though.Yep. Frost is a lot better than Ret. I'm not trying to suggest otherwise. I just think that those saying the Sac change isn't potent are wrong. It's a huge buff to Ret utility.Charred GlyphCharred GlyphLight's HammerVanguard

Ghostcrawler

- Phantasm - no longer makes you untargetable. Movement protection increased to 5 sec (from 3 sec).
- Dispersion - now belongs to the Shadow school, meaning it can get locked out.
- We are expanding the Shadow healing nerf to most of the priest healing toolkit. This means Holy and Discipline will have a passive that increases all of their healing by 25% as do most other healing classes. Holy and Discipline should see no change as a result, but Shadow's heals will be weaker. Remember that this will be partially offset relative to 5.1 because Shadow does get some healing benefit from PvP Power. (This note replaces earlier notes about Flash Heal and Binding Heal being nerfed for Shadow).

just curious, what are you looking at that makes you think shadow priests are OP in pvp? It seems that we get more nerfs based on a projection of what you might think is the case, then classes that were/are OP. What about shadow makes you think it's over powered? I still feel like I get focused every game I play, and you nerfing my escape tool kit, when I don't ever see how priests had superior escapes.

ShockwaveRing of FrostPerhaps there is a much simpler solution (a numbers tweak rather than a mechanics tweak)?Spirit ShellReduce Power Word: Shield mana cost (this is gonna have to happen one way or another to make it viable), and make it so that a priest can't have more than 3 - 4 active Power Word: Shield to avoid Power Word: Shield spam.RejuvenationSpirit Shell formula is slightly off - right now the metagem critical effect (1.03) is only being multiplied in on the expected aegis size on crits not on the entire crit heal. This is causing a slight decrease in the size of Spirit Shell.what the (insert explicit here) are you thinking nerfing shadow priests this hard? you do realize it all but benches them in pve right? they needed a buff in pve as it stands now, and your nerfing them??? seriously?PhantasmDispersionSymbol of HopeMass DispelGC, it is obvious that the nerf to Charred Glyph is a loss on dps even if you are just standing and doing damage.If they catch your cast time spells, which only melee really seem to bother doing these days, then you'll be unable to cast Dispersion until your shadow school is available again. But yes, if a mage decided to wait for you to cast a VT and counterspell that, instead of using a blanket silence on you, then they could prevent Dispersion for 6s.DispersionWas the damage buff it provided too strong? In almost the exact same gear I'm using, I was doing ~67k sustained single target dps. Seemed fine, provided that I had 0 mobility while doing that.Not really sure what this mean or how this really affect gameplay nor why this change now tbh... mind to explain?I can see that 99% of this entire thread is related to PvP, but any chance of some feedback from GC on how he can think a 40-50% nerf to Disc AoE heals is a fair thing, given that at the absolute most we top the meters by 20%. Sure we needed a nerf, but an execution?Prayer of HealingPower Word: ShieldSpirit ShellPrayer of HealingPrayer of HealingPower Word: ShieldPower Word: ShieldPower Word: ShieldRaptureBody and SoulPower Word: ShieldOh, and there's no point in making Fade an escape tool. If the priest is running at 100%, gets slowed, but uses his "escape tool" to go back to 100%; IT STILL DOES NOTHING SINCE THE PERSON COMING AFTER HIM IS RUNNING AT 100%.PhantasmAnd now you want to take that away too, you're turning the talent into a Blessing of Freedom that has a longer cooldown and a shorter duration. Despite the buffs to disc I feel this is a big and unnecessary blow to a spec that's already struggling.Single target damage is bad for shadow priests, and the only changes we're getting so far are:Mass DispelMass DispelPhantasmFade

Ghostcrawler

- Blind - cooldown increased to 2 min (from 90 sec).
- - no longer resets the cooldown of Cloak of Shadows.
- Cloak of Shadows - cooldown reduced to 60 sec (from 2 min).

Ghostcrawler

This post is from the perspective of an Elemental Shaman that mainly focuses on PvP.

Totemic PersistenceStone Bulwark TotemNature's Guardian

Ghostcrawler

- We are reverting the removal of Spell Lock.
- is now Blood Horror and is a 4 sec horror effect instead of a fear. It otherwise works as it does on the PTR.

Ghostcrawler

- Second Wind - we are reverting the nerf to the heal not working while stunned. We think we have nerfed Arms enough for PvP reasons in 5.2.
Looks like they need to just go ahead and buff Arms rage generation.

OverpowerSo let me get this straigt, TFB will reduce the cost of Execute as well? Or does using OP reduce the cost of Execute by 10 for X seconds? Sounds like the second one which is not bad tbh. Means Execute replaces Slam in the rotation (Unless with excess rage in Zerker Stance with CS up) which it should,Sudden DeathOverpowerExecuteOverpowerI'm glad for warriors that you decided to revert the additional nerfs to spell=29838], but there is still a potential problem with it and that tier. The problem is that it's mandatory for warriors to take because it is so necessary for their viability.ShockwaveVanguardOverpowerWarbringerNow moving into patch 5.2 We'll have a similar feel except we'll have a lot of GCDs where we can't do anything because we've blown our rage on AOE. We'll proably go... Mortal Strike > Thunderclap > Whirlwind > Twiddle our thumbs for 3 seconds while we wait for Mortal Strike to come off CD. We don't have that filler of overpower to do something else whilel we wait.WhirlwindSlam

Ghostcrawler

We have a problem right now where melee of all kinds are not very attractive for super-competitive RBG teams, except possibly as a flag carrier, in which case you probably want a druid or warrior. This isn’t the kind of thing we’re going to easily solve by just throwing all sorts of amazing utility at every melee spec, but we agree it’s a problem and we’re looking at longer term solutions.
We use PTR as a time of iteration to try out a lot of changes and see which ones work out or not. We think the time has come to revert some of the PvP nerfs that we made for noble reasons, but which aren't working out. Specifically, we wanted to remove blanket silences and shift the game back more towards casting and interrupts. We think the continual arms race between instant spells, silences and silence immunity isn't good for the long term health of PvP. It is a shift we still plan to make, but we don't think patch 5.2 is the right time to make it. There are a great deal of instant spells and we don't think it is fair or reasonable to remove them all and force so many players (many of whom might not even participate in PvP) to re-learn their class mid-expansion.

I also want to reiterate that we see very little PvP participation during the PTR. This isn't really too surprising since it takes a sizable time commitment and a critical mass of skilled players to really generate good Arena or BG testing. (By contrast, guilds trying out the new raid encounters gives us a lot of PvE testing.) We're not blaming anyone - PvP is just hard to measure until it gets into the "real world," so we are even more dependent on player feedback. Unfortunately, PvP feedback is even more subjective than PvE feedback for a number of reasons, including the lack of meaningful meters, the challenge of keeping in mind the evolving tapestry of changes to all classes, and of course the very human tendency that makes it easy for some players to be quick to take credit for their victories and quick to blame their class for their defeats. :)

This just means PvP balance is always going to take a lot of iteration. We appreciate your patience and all of the good feedback that we get.

We can't test PVP on the PTR because you disabled queueing for battlegrounds and didn't give premades PVP gear.

Either you need find a way to better weed out the bad feedback or your team needs better personal understanding of PvP. Patch 5.0 warriors were IMO worse than S5 DK's.Some of us feel that making PvP better should be an extremely high priority even at the expense of some players feeling a bit confused when logging in after a patch.So you have no problems making warriors or shaman relearn their class mechanics mid-expansion?And this reasoning right here is why my account is canceled as of the 28th.In 5.2, no healer will be able to live through the opener of a Mage/Rogue/X comp, blanket silences, instant CC and stuns will just make those 2 classes very strong together for anyother combination of classes to combat.The reality is that moving more towards the 'interrupt heals, don't prevent them' paradigm would be wonderful. But a huge amount of changes to a great many classes need to be made to make that possible. 5.2 just isn't the time for that. I don't even think it's realistic this expansion, but I'll be they'll try.Enchant Weapon - Glorious TyrannyAre you telling me that not only is this issue understood, but is considered acceptable? Being spammed with out of range while you're clipping someone elses model is incredibly frustrating and a major turn off to playing the game at all. It swings both ways too, being stunned by a melee ability from someone 20yds away is just awesome. I had hoped something would eventually be done to fix this crap.1. Are you happy with how many different categories there are?
2. Are you happy that some abilities affect more than one DR category?
3. Are you happy CC is so complicated, that not even sites like Arena Junkies can track how they all interact?
4. If you are not happy, would you please please please consider reworking CC and DR and make it transparent in the tool tips?That's what I'm trying to say in more attention grabbing ways. I can try running the numbers in simcraft or wrathcalcs if that will help, but I'm not the math expert that some of the silent laser chickens are.MAKE SEPARATE TALENTS FOR PVE AND PVP!!!!Polymorph

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Comment by TushWow!

GC really wants us Rogues to just shut up already, huh?

Fix my Subtlety spec and I'll shut up.Comment by AlfadorHey hey, it's the Crumbling Vault from Diablo 3!Comment by taggme... something based on server wide efforts?(war efforts for treasure room) ... I feel bad for the 80% of realms that have at least 1 faction with low/dead population.Comment by BarticusThis is directly from the coin-op arcade game Gauntlet. To complete the cheesy rip off, they better have the booming voice count down the last ten seconds.Comment by ThrorFORT BOYARD THE WOW VERSIONComment by LordplatypusFixing ring of frost.

FINALLY! it's almost impossible to escape before the thing freezes me sometimes.Comment by florhlI've always wanted a war effort style returned from the pre-AQ days, that was so much fun. I hope this will live up to that again, sadly I missed the AQ opening on our server & wished I would have found time to log in & see it.Comment by CrimsonPutWhat are you complaining for?
You have Cloak of Shadows, while "enemies" druids have nothing to Dispell and re-stealth =/Comment by FireKatKidDear Blizzard,

After reading the information regarding your new "loot-grabbing scenario" coming in patch 5.2, I have a small request to add to it. Please, under some circumstance or another, allow players to play the Gauntlet bonus level music while in this scenario. Even if you have to loot a chest, fight a mob appearing as Death itself, or perhaps shoot some food in order to trigger it. It would be greatly appreciated.

With love,
FireKatKidComment by SeverageI'm glad someone addressed the Shadow Priest PvE issue...and I'm glad GC said that they will be making changes. We deserved that PvP nerf --- as a PvE geared Spriest I was rocking random BGs pretty well, almost always #5 or higher on the charts.

Our multi-DoT PvE DPS is great, but our Single-target DPS is so lackluster it's underwhelming. This is obvious in fights like Feng the Accursed, where our DPS is always on the bottom of the charts unless we're overgeared. It's also obvious during Bloodlust/Timewarp or similar effects...our DPS is passed by a long shot during those (Unless you get very lucky on DoT procs), because all we can do really is cast more filler spells, while other classes have real CDs to use.

I'm anxiously looking forward to PvE changes to Shadow, and at the bar minimum I hope they make up for that Mind Spike glyph nerf...in a long fight, that will add up to a ton of Mind Flay filler spells lost to Mind Blast cast time.Comment by skcusefil666don't know why they didn't just do what GW started doing and make pvp/pve separate skills then they can make changes to pve and not screw up the pvp and vice versa instead of trying to make 2 totally different groups of people happy at the same time..Comment by Astygiadon't know why they didn't just do what GW started doing and make pvp/pve separate skills then they can make changes to pve and not screw up the pvp and vice versa instead of trying to make 2 totally different groups of people happy at the same time..Comment by Valius1989I'm confused. Did this get derailed into Rogue QQ? :(Comment by InterestHey hey, it's the Crumbling Vault from Diablo 3!Comment by CorgaI have read quite a bit about the changes to Shadow Priests, all I keep reading is "we do this because of PVP" why does PVE have to suffer for PVP purposes? I find that instead of balancing classes you favor those of rogues and mages then tell everyone else tough and live with it. I started out as a warrior back in vanilla, the nerfs were so bad the class itself was horendous. Why does everything you do have to determine what PVP players say? If they dont like it tell them to stay out of pvp and deal with it. I feel that you are playing favorites with pvp players and disreguarding all of the players who like the actual content. Next I expect to see Ice Block get nerfed and be able to be cancelled by a silence. It would only make it right since you are nerfing dispersion.Comment by WowpixelI have read quite a bit about the changes to Shadow Priests, all I keep reading is "we do this because of PVP" why does PVE have to suffer for PVP purposes?Comment by 862181This post was from a user who has deleted their account.Comment by ZephytothI wonder if this is gonna be daily event (the loot run) or if it's gonna cost something to participate.Comment by SobranoIs it too much to ask that PvE is considered more in these tweaks? Rogues are damn near useless when soloing, and many other classes are having their most useful survivability stuff get removed or nerfed because of PvP. I don't PvP at all, and its starting to make the game almost unplayable for many people I know, and its only still fine for me because I play a druid, which is one of the most self-sufficient classes. Why no love for PvE blizzard? Is it just because the PvP people complain the loudest?Comment by MandelorHooray to Ghostcrawler:

While I do not agree with all of the changes Blizzard implement and I downright hate some of them, I find it reassuring when he comes out with statements like
"So all I'm asking is don't beat up on us for caring about the impact our decisions make on the whole player base, not just the minority who post."

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