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Seeking Outside Opinions re: Hit
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Post by
355397
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Post by
109094
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Post by
meowliekacat
If your tanks are losing aggro due to misses/parry/dodges, they might want to gem for hit/expertise. If not, then I wouldn't worry about it.
As a tank, I'd almost always get expertise before hit, though.
Post by
Heckler
As a tank, I'd almost always get expertise before hit, though.
If you have the choice (such as with gems, which you probably never will) you should ALWAYS choose expertise if you're below 6.5%, because below that it reduces dodge% AND parry% by the same amount that +hit lowers miss%, meaning Expertise is TWICE as valuable as Hit. Once you clear 6.5% expertise (called the 'soft cap') +Hit and +Expertise are equal in terms of TPS, but Expertise has the added benefit of reducing parry-hasted attacks on bosses that have them, meaning its still a bit better since it adds some damage mitigation as well.
This applies until you get to around 10% because some bosses have a parry chance of 10%, meaning points above 10% may be wasted. (Some bosses have a 15% parry chance though (!)). These are the reasons that people say to aim for ~6% hit and ~10% expertise; just keep in mind that in general, expertise is MUCH more valuable below 6.5%, and still a little better between 6.5 and 10.
(To give +Hit a
tiny
amount of praise, it affects Growl and Faerie Fire, Expertise doesn't.)
Post by
355397
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Post by
curlymon
I have a counter question. What are their views on expertise?
Edit: damn you answered me before me I need to learn to refresh when I have more then 5 topics tabbed.... And typing wow... *sigh*
Post by
curlymon
Well for a Druid 'at the very least' a missed attack means:
A missed chance to crit which means a missed
Savage Defense
Proc
Loss of rage generated
Loss of threat generated
Possible loss of
Mangle
debuff (really bad hit and expertise as they suggest can easily have this happen)
Possible loss of
Lacerate
stack (same reasons as above)
Every single one of these is a bad thing for a Bear tank.
In addition a lack of 'hit' will cause Growl to have a full 17% chance to miss a target... If they are relying on taunts to build agro generation that's a 17% chance that the DPS pushing the agro is going to get smacked in the face. Having hit cap or Adra's suggested 6% hit would reduce this to 9-11% miss to be fair but then that's 6-8% of the attacks that
would have missed
that are now generating threat and you might not need the taunt as a result.
Hit is very important. Expertise is doubly so till soft cap and equal after.
Post by
271063
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Post by
393352
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Post by
Heckler
From what I understand, this is a little wrong. A "miss" can only be a "miss." It could never have been a crit. This may have changed, but I am pretty sure this is how it goes. If you have 30 percent crit, and 5 percent chance to miss, every time you swing you will hit normally 65%, crit 30%, and miss 5%. Those misses do not take away from your crit, only your chance to "hit."
Hit is important, but in my tanking experience, finding it in large amounts will only amount to taking away from your expertise. And that would be very bad. In full naxx25/uld10 gear, i may have had 1 piece of gear with hit on it. Never had a problem without it.
White attacks work like this ^ (One-roll system), but yellow attacks are generally believed to be on a 'two-roll' system where first you check whether an attack lands or fails, THEN you check whether or not it is a crit. Since Savage Defense can proc on white and yellow, curly is accurate when talking about yellow attacks.
So in your example (5% fail chance, 30% crit), on average:
100 White Swings (Auto Attack):
5 fails
30 Crits (30%)
65 Regular hits (glances happen here too, but thats not really relevant)
100 Yellow Swings (Shred):
5 fails
28.5 Crits (28.5%)
66.5 Regular hits
Post by
109094
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Post by
Aadramelekh
What's so damn hard already?
YES, HIT AND EXPERTISE ARE BLOODY IMPORTANT! GET 6% HIT and 10% EXPERTISE IF YOU WANT TO CONSIDER YOURSELF A GOOD TANK.
I hope this clears things out.
Post by
271063
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Post by
Aadramelekh
The OP said that he reached even Kologarn in Ulduar 10. At this level one should be able to muster at least 5% hit and 8% expertise. Reason?
1.
Tunic of Dislocation
2.
Gilt-Edged Leather Gauntlets
3.
Boots of the Neverending Path
4.
Helm of the Vast Legions
5.
Heroes Dreamwalker Legguards
6.
Trollwoven Spaulders
7.
Sharp-Barbed Leather Belt
8.
Bindings of the Tunneler
9.
Durable Nerubhide Cape
10.
Chained Military Gorget
11.
Hemorrhaging Circle
12.
Deflection Band
and last but not least...
13.
Staff of the Plaguehound
These pieces of gear provide 295 Expertise Rating (~9% expertise). With 2.5% expertise provided by Primal Precision, one should be able to reach 11.5% expertise. Not bad at all. Actually pretty good.
Also they provide 221 hit rating, or 6.92% hit. Which is once again not bad.
All these lvl 200 items are well suited for tanking and provide a solid chunk of hit and expertise. There is no excuse for a Bear tank moving to Ulduar 10 not to have these stats. Efficient threat generation is the other major requirement from any respectable tank (after survivability).
Post by
174171
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Post by
271063
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Post by
109094
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Post by
Aadramelekh
I usually raid as pussy cat. I have had the occasion to have Bear tanks with 4-5% expertise and close to no hit at all. They were all pumped up with stamina and agility and yet I would easily overaggro. And I have had the chance of running with Bears that took TPS seriously and were loaded with hit and expertise. Only once I managed to pull aggro, and that was my 'fault' due to an unusually long streak of Shred critical hits during the first Berserk (6-7 seconds after the fight start).
The reason expertise soft capping is so important is to improve your survivability, not increase your damage
Incomplete / Incorrect. One more thing about expertise and survivability: it IS valuable for survivability up to its hard cap of 15%, precisely because PARRIED attacks trigger the hasted retaliation mechanic. And also parried / dodged attacks (which can go up to a total of 21.5% from the entire attack table, mind you) generate no damage. No damage = no threat.
A tank, does not need to deal damage. A tank's job is to hold agro.
Hahahahahaha! And how is a Bear Tank supposed to hold aggro if not by doing damage (duh)?
Stop being dense. For feral druids, pure physical damage is THE way to generate threat (and thus to hold aggro). All the Attack Power, Armor Penetration, Critical or Haste Ratings are worth exactly nothing when the Bear Tank can't hit the target. There is a reason for which Bears geared in lvl 200 items like those listed above will naturally have ~35% crit chance raid buffed. Druids don't have any kind of 'spells' that magically generate threat, druids need to smash their target's face as hard as possible to generate threat. No fancy
Sockwave
,
Thunderclap
,
Consecration
,
Avenger's Shield
,
Rune Strike
or
Death and Decay
. Just plain face smashing with instant physical attacks. They rely on hitting the target and getting some nice critical hits from time to time.
I am not saying that this should be an obsession. But once a druid has access to level 80 epic gear, there are excellent items that will provide enough hit and expertise by themselves, leaving the sockets open for agility and stamina. There is no reason for a druid who has raided 10 man Tier 7 content not to have a decent amount of hit and expertise. Probably the lvl 200 Gladiator PvP pieces seem more attractive due to the higher amount of stamina (and equal amount of agility) than PvE pieces. But having, say, 2000 more HP isn't going to make much of an impression on raid members that have to constantly hold back on DPS or even pull aggro because the Druid tank is stupid enough not to realize that
DOING DAMAGE IS THE WAY TO GENERATE THREAT
.
And the premise to dealing maximum damage is first of all being able to hit the target at least 95% of the time.
Post by
271063
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Post by
Aadramelekh
Any serious Bear Tank should be able to maintain decent levels of hit and expertise once he/she has access to epic gear. I don't mean necessarily caps, but within 1-2% for hit and 4-5% for expertise are good values. And yes, swapping a piece of gear which gives me 1.5% expertise for one that gives me 15 more stamina and 10 more agility but no expertise isn't a good trade in my book.
Oh, and having only 'incidental' amounts of hit may result in your Growl missing in critical situations more often than you'd like.
You're free to be a bad tank, it's not like I care.
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