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Is frost now THE tanking tree?
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Post by
104555
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Post by
70814
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Post by
Bonurmum
That previous post made me lol. obviously someone needs to better understand mechanics or general DK tanking in addition to frost tanking.
First off that build posted is by no means a standard for frost.
Chillbains?Acclimation?2/5KM? I think any competant talent chooser would know better than that.
Lets now look at Frost rotation with new Howling blast glyph. you use a combinateion of HB/Obli/FS inbetween. letss see now, 2/3 abilities there deal direct frost dammage. 5/5 Black ice is 10% increased frost dammage. well then, we have a nice threat boost there, dont we? just because you fail to understand how Frost tanks manage threat through these abilities by dammage doesnt mean you can give the impression it is a useless talent choice (as opposed to your choice of icy reach and lichbourne?)
Skip IMP Frost presence? with the recent nerf on our addmitaedly OP avoidance id say 2% pure mitigation is worth 2 talents...
6 seconds on IBF as well ass better dammage to your threat holding abilities? They already removed glyph of IBF, why make it harder on yourself? Clearly skipping it is not a smart choice.
HB is not just an AoE, its now a part of the rotation to apply Frost Fever.
It seems someone needs to go diving into the threads to find out the mechanics on tanking.
Not trying to be argumenative so much as informative here, you just dont seem to understand how the tanking mechanic works.
Now to get back on topic, Unholy tanking, as well as blood, have not been done away with. Its still very doable and if the OP loved tanking Unholy i see no reason why he shouldnt continue
Post by
70814
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Post by
Bonurmum
Look back at my posts and you answered your own question, taking talent points out of damage increasing (ergo direct threat increasing) talents instead of talents absolutely usesless to a tank (look at all the talents you have suggested) does not make a better build, which was the original intent of my post. How many encounters fear in current content? I beleive I can count them in one hand, including trash pulls (that usually target someone either than the tank to fear, DTK is my example here). Increased range on Icy Touch to grab threat? why do you think you lost threat in the first place? your abilities did less dammage. Not to mention your Taunt (8sec, same range as DG) should always be available to retain aggro and maintain your rotation.
The extra dammage is not
Needed
, I never suggested that it was except in reply to your post on one of a concern on threat. However the choices in talents you chose were less useful as compared to the benefit from my suggestions.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZhxx0AbIof0iost0xh
my build. It has been optimal for me so far, havent been out TPSed on anyfight, and great mitigation.. I also do about 2k dps in heroics alone, which greatly helps instances and bosses (as well as threat). I highly reccomend it to anyone who uses frost for tanking
Post by
Astygia
Both specs are fine, and about equal in terms of tanking power. Frost tanking is slightly easier in that it doesn't require a lot of thought to make it work... HB>PS>Pest>BBxinfinity...rinse repeat. Not bad or complicated at all...if trash pulls start to get wild, the solution is only a HB away.
Blood, when mixed with unholy, is (to me) much more enjoyable and more dependable, IMO. The combination of BB and UB, along with the vast toolset that comes along with going into both trees (Corpse Explosion fun + enhanced BB, gotta love it) gives you all the tools you need to sustain, control, and manage aggro, along with healing yourself and providing a factory of buffs to your group.
Don't get me wrong, not hating on frost. It's simple, reliable, and easy to roll with, and was my preferred tree pre-3.1. With the recent changes to talent trees though, blood/unholy has become more viable for the endgame in its constant and high threat/dps output. The mobs will stick to you like freaking glue if you're doing it right.
Random corrections to previous posters: Extra damage, if possible to squeeze in, is ALWAYS needed, are you crazy?
Bloodworms have most certainly not been nerfed and although it's a 'chance' to spawn them, try going 3/3 into the worms and enjoy the health, because they proc quite a lot. Further, the problem with them sniffing out and bringing in unintended aggro can be solved quite easily by you, the tank, simply knowing the pulls. The only heroics I can think of where that's even an issue are HoS and HoL, and again it's a matter of just pulling back a little farther and using your tools to bring the group to you if need be. I recently rerolled to horde and am still gearing my raid tank up so I've not yet seen how they roll in ulduar, but having used them in naxx on my old alliance toon, the threat of worms pulling aggro is moot.
Short of the long: there is no "the" tanking tree anymore, smart people can make anything work. Have fun and experiment.
Post by
Dekaroe
I...... I don't understand why there is so much confusion coming from this guy........ but it makes my head hurt that there's so much crazy talk going on in this topic.....
I'm not a hard core player, and even I know what are good tanking talents versus not good tanking talents....
And blood worms...? Iol instantbad
Post by
Bonurmum
Like I originally said, preferance plays a big role in deciding spec. If it works for you, use it, however for some it is more of a question as to what is optimal, and from my experience frost is the most optimal tree out now. Its versatile for all tanking encounters, and provides a slight edge to most other trees imo. You wont see many tanks tanking 3D sarth waiting on an unholy rune for corpse explode. But if you want to, go for it ;)
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142317
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Post by
Bonurmum
I did look back at your posts, and I did not, in fact, answer my own question. I have not been out TPS'd on my blood spec either, and you are giving up 15% chance on dodge to gain 15 runic power, DKs dodge a lot, Blood of the North isn't as good as Death Rune Mastery, you spec has ZEROOOOOO spell damage mitigation, which is supposed to be one of our HUGE tanking areas due to our abnormally high parry rating (used as damage mitigation) Frost Strike and all the extra crit chance (total of 9 points in your spec, killing machine and Guile of Gorefiend) are 100% useless because they're for causing EXCESS damage, which helps your tanking abilities 0%, because I can generate more than enough TPS as my better tanking spec, you don't even have Hungering Cold, 1 ONE POINT TALENT, which can prevent wipes if your team gets fear bombed into another mob, Tundra is another needless damage increase to your targets that you're needlessly Howling Blast-ing, when you have perfectly good talents that will do the job just as well. They won't generate AS MUCH threat to non-targeted enemies, but they EASILY get the job done for holding group aggro.
Aside from that, in blood you get:
=Rather than only 15% increased Blood Strike damage in Frost, I get 45% increased HEART STRIKE damage, which not only has higher base damage, it hits two people.
=30% extra Blood Boil damage which you can easily add into your rotation to get AoE threat, if needed at all, which most of the time you don't, only when other classes are going to AoE.
=Take 45% less spell damage equal to my abnormally high parry rating
=Randomly heal myself for small amount of health, even though I'm already taking less damage than you.
=Buff my entire party to do 10% more melee damage than your party
=Can buff a single target to do even more damage (20% more for 20 sec)
=!Instantly grant myself a 15% total health increase! (yeah that's not important for tanking at all)
=When a boss randomly WTF crits me, if it takes me below 35% health, automatically take 15% less damage
=free of cost, automatic cast Death Coil
And that's just ADDITIONAL STUFF that YOU DON'T GET. I still get 5% dodge, 2% chance to avoid attack, a useful pulling talent, an ability that keeps me from having to equip an extra trinket (even if it was recently "nerfed" to more include reduced chance to hit, it's still very useful) still generate extra runic power which I can turn into threat
And you get.....some extra threat ability....on targets your party isn't even attacking yet.....
Wow, sounds worthwhile to me, and that you've been tanking for years.....
I WAS ON WOW BETA NUBS. I don't care if you THINK your spec is better, go for it! I'll be happy with my smart people, who never die, thanks to me, their amazing BLOOOOD TANKKKKK NOT STUPID FROST THAT HAS NEXT TO ZERO ACTUAL TANK TALENTS.
KM useless? dumb. the guarantee crit is amazing tps, and is actually one of the more required talents to take up in frost tree. Death rune mastery? getting death runes off oblit makes no sence considering our rotation focuses getting death runes to use Oblit (not mentioning increased IBF duration which is very useful).
And missing out on spell mitigation? Acclimation is not very good, considering it is still a chance to procc. and chances are it will only proc when the mob is done casting that spell type (breaths for example) which then wastes its bonus effect.
As for your arguments supporting blood talents, Spell deflection is crappy considering hardly any bosses use direct targeted spells(most are AoEs, and much of the single target spells target other raid members regardless of threat), and when they do it is still a low proc chance.
You would not be taking less damage as blood seeing as Frost offers mitigation (Imp presence/UA).
Bosses shouldn't crit you if your at the required 540 Defence (have you ever read about tanking?). Even then the healing given from blood is nice, but should never be relied on, as a healer should be doing their job and making sure you do not die, and when you have healers doing their job, really, those talents are wasted.
Your arguments show a clear misunderstanding of how your class operates. However, if you enjoy your build use it, but dont give the false impression that your talent points are superior.
Post by
70814
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70814
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Post by
Bonurmum
4% heal of damage done is not mitigation. Not to say it isnt useful, but frost offers better. 2% pure damage reduction? This rermoves dmage from spells,physical,dots,poison. Coupled with BB youll have 12% mitigation, suddenly those "Huge crits" become much smaller. lets see, 4% healing (through damage) through imp blood presence is not nearly as useful as 2% pure mitigation, as you suggest. While its a steady heal (for much less than 1% of your HP) it is by no means superior to pure mitigation. I fear I cannot make you understand this, dont beleive me go to the EJ forums and browse the forums there and you might be able to hold a concrete argument. Necropolis is good yes, but realize it procs at 35% hp. Most encounters, you will probably see 35% a few time in a fight, but probably (If your decently equipped with good avoidance) you will not have the HP% to make it proc, and when you are you will likely be healed above it anyway, making the reduced damage less mitigation then you'd beleive it is (15% off a strike every 15 sec compared to 12% base mitigation of frost). (remember, we still have UA too...)
I agree, tanks shouldnt focus on DPS, but cosidering its how we build threat (threat being a vital role for a tank) we should at least put something into increasing it, and any competent frost tank will realize how efficient KM is (I have yet to encounter someone as disillusioned as you over KM, try frost without it and it makes things difficult).
I never discredited those talents, they are quite useful to take in blood (read my first post on your first build, those were the talents i questioned, such as bloodworms and icy reach). however, as it stands, frost offers more than you credit (or comprehend) it for.
Go browse the nets for info, you'll find theres alot you dont know about tanking, we all have to learn sometime.
Meant to say it wasnt mitigation, my mistake there o;
Post by
334662
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