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Frost mages arent THAT bad in raids/PVE
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Post by
345521
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Post by
Achloryn
you're right.. frost mages aren't
that bad
in raids and pve content, but they're really not
that good
either.. let me break this down point by point for what you said.
Winter's Chill makes it easier on scorch slaves -
that's true, but it takes less time to cast 5 scorchs than it does to cast 5 frostbolts.
Speccing TTW automatically gives you the extra damage -
also true, but ANY TANK has a talent that would make TTW active on any boss mob, and fire/ttw or arcane mages (which are both specced into TTW) will still benefit from that damage increase, and their DPS is much higher.
Focus Magic -
Again, arcane mages and Fire/TTW mages both have this.. You should only put it on a healer IF there's not another DPS caster in the group.
Enduring Winter givfes replenishment to raids -
This is pointless, because survival hunters, shadow priests and ret pallies also give replenishment to the raid.. they don't stack, and in those particular cases their highest dps specs include these.. Frost is not the highest DPS for mages.
In the grand scheme of things, frost is not worth it for raiding. the "benefits" given for raiding frost are not worth the better dps you get for raiding in one of the big 3 specs.
Post by
Alistair
Winter's Chill requires 5 frostbolts to stack it up. With the glyph, Improved Scorch only requires a single cast. Plus, Scorch has a much lower cast time than Frostbolt.
Scorch > Frostbolt.
Second, an Arcane or a FB/TTW build also includes Focus Magic, so Frost builds are not pulling ahead here. They're barely staying equal.
Replenishment is nice, but in most raid boss fights, if the healers or DPS are running out of mana, it's usually a sign that the fight has gone on too long. Arcane mages are the exception, as they will go out of mana several times during the fight, but that's what Mana gems and Evocation is for.
Although the replenishment can be nice, it's not enough to compensate for the LACK of damage-increasing talents in the Frost tree to make it a competitive raiding spec. While it's possible to pull high numbers with frost if very well geared, you are GUARANTEED to do better as arcane, FFB or FB/TTW (with the appropriate hit rating). It's been proven time and again - Frost simply doesn't put out the matching DPS.
And given that mages are there to blast giant holes in enemy's health, not for mana (that's what innervates are for), replenishment isn't worth it.
Also, while the water elemental can provide a decent DPS boost, much of the Frost tree is centered around damage avoidance and reduction. Which shouldn't be a problem in raids, as the opponents should be hitting the tank, not you.
EDIT - Dang you, Achloryn! You covered all my points, but beat me by a second!
Post by
250116
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Post by
303016
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Post by
Achloryn
Winter's Chill requires 5 frostbolts to stack it up. With the glyph, Improved Scorch only requires a single cast. Plus, Scorch has a much lower cast time than Frostbolt.
I'll quote Alistair instead so he feels loved. =P
A fair point... For maybe the first 10 seconds of the fight. I don't see how Scorch is better when you need to constantly reapply it (proven to gimp DPS) wheras a Frost Mage will keep the debuff almost eternally through Frostbolt spam and doesn't need to deviate from his/her main nuke.
I think this really shows that although Frost is weaker than the other specs for the time being, some people need to actually
learn
it before they shoot it down.
the amount of dps that is "gimped" by refreshing scorch every so often is much less significant than the amount that you're simply NOT PUTTING OUT by you being a frost mage.
either way... Dread is right, i didn't even think about improved shadow bolt, but yes... it doesn't stack with imp. scorch/winter's chill.
Post by
150866
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Post by
303016
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Post by
OscarDivine
Think about it not as being "Anti-Frost" but "Pro-Better-DPS".
Frost has its strengths. In fact, I used to be the biggest supporter of Frost Raiding in BC. However, even I was able to see the growing gap in Frost DPS to Fire and other specs. If you like it, play it. But if others are suffering from 1% or under wipes, then ask yourself if you could have made up that difference somehow by doing something differently.
Post by
Achloryn
Of course. However, we're not theorycrafting a purely solo scenario here. The increased DPS sustained by Scorch Mages who now
don't need
to Scorch may in some cases offset this.
May
.
I really do wish you "Anti-Frost" Mages would quit the crybaby attitude everytime the spec is mentioned. ;)
i am far from anti-frost, i'm not crybabying, and it's not pure theorycrafting.. i've tried raiding with frost (just for S&G in an os 10)... and the single target dps that's put out is nothing compared to any of the three main specs. even with the sustaining of the 5% crit without having to alter your rotation. it's not theorycrafting, it's real numbers. i can try doing it sometime tomorrow if you'd like and post screenshots of the numbers to prove it to you.
and so can every other raiding mage with the same results... frost isn't terrible, but it is by far the worst raiding spec. the better your gear gets, the greater the difference is between frost and the "big three". even if you're a scorch slave and have to put all five stacks of scorch on at the beginning of a fight, and having to refresh it every so often.... you'll still out-dps a frost mage with the same gear.
edit: blast you oscar.. you said it better than i did.. :D
Post by
303016
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Achloryn
You say you're not "Anti-Frost", yet despite the fact I consistantly
agreed
that Frost was the weakest spec, you're still pushing the benefits of the other specs. Seriously, it's like trying to convert a Christian to Christianity (something I wouldn't consider impossible in today's world, but I digress).
The point I attempted to make is to address the kneejerk reaction people have to the words, "Frost PVE". The mere mention of them seems to send people in this forum into a fervor the likes of which I've not seen (except at the official forums). Criticize, don't chastise.
no, what you did was continue to bury your head in the sand and show the benefits of frost over other specs. i will give you this, you DID say "frost is weaker than the other specs for the time being", and then proceeded to say that some people need to "learn it" before shooting it down.. my point to the OP was that all the benefits of frost in pve are provided in a much better way by other classes or the big three mage specs.
and I wasn't chastising the OP. I was merely showing him that while yes, frost isn't
that bad
in end game pve, it merely isn't
that good either
... and then i was explaining why. this forum is about educating people, right? Well, I was merely educating the OP about some flaws in his arguments about the benefit of frost raiding.
seems to me we have had this discussion before in another thread. there's really no need to get defensive on the issue of frost raid, as you are more than free to do what you like with your character. The original poster made several points, I made a counterpoint for each one.
Post by
303016
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Post by
Achloryn
i'm not pointing fingers or falling victim to this nonsense anymore.. you wanna flame, go right ahead. enjoy talking to yourself
Post by
68844
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Post by
Achloryn
Inavitago, i'm not downplaying the merits of frost in pvp, but the thread is talking about it's usage in PvE and raids... Raids especially are all about single target damage...which is where, sadly, frost just falls behin in comparison. I do know the mechanics of the frost spec very well so it's not an uninformed opinion backed up by theorycrafting and the words of others.
Post by
303016
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
nickseng
y
that's true, but it takes less time to cast 5 scorchs than it does to cast 5 frostbolts.
I'm being anal-retentive here, but generally, frost mages uses Blizzard to apply 5 stacks of Winter's Chill, which is faster than 5 casts of scorch.
Unless you glyph scorch of course, but that's a dps loss most of the time.
Nothing else to add. :)
Post by
150866
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
nickseng
That's a pretty big DPS loss last time I checked, didn't think it was worth it at all.
That
I'd have to see the math for.
Plus there's the fact it's 74% base mana for a cast, but Frost might not really care.
Blizzard is roughly doing better base dps as scorch (by about 100 or so), and it does applied the debuff much faster. It
is
a hefty mana cost, but it really doesn't matter since it's frost.
Of course, it really doesn't matter because it still doesn't make Frost any more viable.
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