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@ Feminism
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Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
None. Not once? So, if a prospective rapist is standing on the street corner, and spots two different women, one is a really hot 20-something woman in suggestive clothing, and the other is a 500 pound 90 year old woman wearing sackcloth and an iron lung, the chances of one or the other woman being the final victim are exactly equal, because sexual attraction has NOTHING to do with it at all? That's what you are saying?Oh come on. You know what I mean.No. I don't. I want to know where the line sits, because when it comes down to the wire, sexual attraction DOES play a role.Were I a rapist, and I saw two women, both of average build, and one in a bikini, and one in business attire, I would go after whichever one was the more vulnerable target. Whichever one is the easier mark.
It's not about sex. It's not about seeing suggestive clothing and thinking "Man, I want to have sex with her." It's about seeing a woman and thinking "Man, I want to see the terror in her eyes. I want to hurt her so bad."
I don't doubt this is the case, some of the time. I also don't doubt that some of the time, people want to have sex with someone who simply doesn't want to have sex back, and rape ensues. Otherwise, why are some rape victims drugged?I still think that teaching men "Don't have sex with a girl without permission," "Men and women are equal, and both have to consent in order for sex to happen," and "A woman is always allowed to say no," and teaching women "Don't leave your drinks lying around," "Don't drink if your date had access to it outside of your vision," and "Carry pepper spray, just in case." will go a lot farther than telling them to dress differently.
There isn't a need to choose one nor the other. It's all about respect. Teach men to respect women, and teach women to respect themselves. Telling women they should dress as ^&*!ty as they want ISN'T SELF RESPECT, and I find it kind of gross when we encourage women to make themselves into objects of lust because that is comfortable, or empowering. That's just immoral.It seemed like that's what MyTie was pushing for. As for how woman dress, I maintain that I really have no say, one way or another. Women are no less intelligent than I, they can make their own judgments and choices with their lives.
I know he did, and I was one of the first people to say that I disagreed with that particular viewpoint. The thing is though, we can't ignore facts just because they might support an opponents stance. Pretending that the way a woman dresses has no bearing whatsoever on the likelihood of an attack doesn't help the debate come to any sort of resolution. Better to acknowledge that fact, and make your case as to why the priority should still be education above changing the way people dress.I have to hand it to Ryja. I was simply going along with the opposition point, because it really shouldn't matter whether a victim is targeted because of clothes or not, she should dress in a way that promotes self respect, because that will help promote society to respect all women. But, when it does come down to it, Ryja is right, which creates another angle in which modest dress becomes a responsible avenue to teach women.I think the idea is that it forces your calf muscle up... I've always preferred decent walking boots meself. However, if somebody was getting aggressive, they make a fine weapon if you aren't too drunk to stamp accurately.
I, personally, have always found high heels kind of gross. I think it is because I know they have to be uncomfortable, therefore a lot of women wear them to get attention, which to me, isn't attractive. Same with a lot of makeup, or a very loud personality/mouth, or really really over the top/attention seeking. I prefer a woman who is wearing no make up, and wearing comfortable shoes, and in jeans and a t shirt, and honestly, I prefer my male friends to not be attention seeking either. I feel that is more genuine. And, if a woman's genuine personality is reflected by high heels, massive amounts of makeup, @#$%ty clothes, and a 4 hour hairstyle, she simply doesn't have the same priorities as I do. Well, that was before I got married, anyway. Now I have eyes for one woman, the most beautiful woman on Earth, my wife.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Oh snap Xp
Post by
MyTie
Be careful, young Padawan. That way lies the path of the burka. And who is to teach the women? Us menfolk? That's arrogant.
Oh boy. Here it comes again. Because I think a woman should dress modestly, means I think she should be forced to. Why one extreme or the other? Why not allow a woman to choose to wear anything she wants, but as a society highly encourage everyone to not seek attention, especially through their clothes?
Next up, I get accused of being an anarchist because I don't believe in public option healthcare.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Be careful, young Padawan. That way lies the path of the burka. And who is to teach the women? Us menfolk? That's arrogant.
Oh boy. Here it comes again. Because I think a woman should dress modestly, means I think she should be forced to. Why one extreme or the other? Why not allow a woman to choose to wear anything she wants, but as a society highly encourage everyone to not seek attention, especially through their clothes?
Next up, I get accused of being an anarchist because I don't believe in public option healthcare.
Nah, that's not what he meant. I think he was just joking about both of us being given the same line about what he said.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Why shouldn't a woman be able to think "I look GORGEOUS tonight! Look at all the looks I'm getting! I could have my pick of every potential partner here, and so I should, I deserve it!. All my friends are jealous, because they aren't getting the same attention. Now he/she's cute.." That is self respect, that is positive self image. That is power claimed.Getting attention because of a pair of shoes you are wearing is seeking attention through a pair of shoes, not through you. You are not your shoes. Teaching women to get an education, read poetry, express kindness and patience to the world around them... now THOSE are attention seeking behaviors. Because, I find it extremely attractive when a woman opens her mouth, and eloquently expresses intelligent thought. NOT WEARS HIGH HEELS. It's disgusting, and cheap, that we as a society encourage, and value, women who expose the most boob and wear the highest heel. How do we ever expect to treat women equally if we do not start to value what is in their heads, instead of how their bodies look? Men try to do that all the time.This thread is about women. If it were about men, I would be saying the exact same thing.Oh mate! You never said "forced" to, I'm just pointing out that it is a very slippery slope.There is no slippery slope. There's several miles of flat ground that must be traversed intentionally. No slope.Why would you not want people to encourage themselves to be noticed? It's not just clothing: we do it with possessions, songs/music, dancing etc. It's an essential mating ritual, but also, you like to get respect and recognition for who you are, and display it publicly in various ways don't you?My mating ritual does not require certain possessions. Songs and dancing have nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
He has certain religiously guided beliefs about what is modest and appropriate.
Don't make it about that.
Post by
MyTie
The clothing thing between myself and MyTie. He has certain religiously guided beliefs about what is modest and appropriate.It goes quite a bit beyond religion. I have yet to cite Bible verses here because I believe these values can be held in common with atheists. As Ryja says, it's not about that. Value women for what they know, how they act, and what they value. That's how I want to be viewed. That's how I want everyone to be viewed. Teaching women to wear clothes to grab attention is to teach them that they are valued for appearance, and further, teaching society to value appearance. Then we wonder why we have no respect for women, and why they are rape victims so often. OK, but you can't do anything more than try to convince people why they should dress the way you'd like them to.
I like people dressed any way they care to, and don't see any "right and wrong" in it. I like scruffy clothes, elegant clothes, flamboyant clothes, and don't really have a problem with a lack of clothes. Be practical. Express yourself. If I see a woman walking around in skimpy clothing in March, I feel sorry for her. She's probably freezing.
The clothes themselves aren't wrong. A shirt is not wrong, a pair of shoes are not wrong. But, you must ask WHY you are wearing the article of clothing you are wearing. If you are wearing it out of pride, to be seen, and you want people to value you for how you look, then you are devaluing yourself. Insist that people value you for your qualities beyond physical.
Post by
Skreeran
There is no slippery slope. There's several miles of flat ground that must be traversed intentionally. No slope.Not really. Once we change, the "normal" changes. What's more-or-less modest now would be more provocative by comparison.
Repeat a few times.
Post by
MyTie
There is no slippery slope. There's several miles of flat ground that must be traversed intentionally. No slope.Not really. Once we change, the "normal" changes. What's more-or-less modest now would be more provocative by comparison.
Repeat a few times.
I understand that fashion would change. I get that. But there is NO SLOPE between "women should wear modest clothing" to "women will wear burqas or die". Kind of like, there is a slippery slope between censorship and propaganda, but there is no slippery slope between censorship and nuclear war. The two aren't related. A religious despot is not the logical conclusion to encouraging women to dress modestly, and to suggest otherwise is to infer a straw man. So, no. No no no no no. A thousand times no. Let's just go ahead and put a pin in that silliness, and get back to honest discussion.
Post by
Skreeran
He never said "women will wear burqas or die." The idea is that it we go down that path, it's going to just end up getting more ridiculous. "I'm not saying it was her fault, but she could very well have covered her face as a precaution. The rapist saw her provocative clothing and was attracted to her. If she's covered her face, she might not have become a target. Again, not saying it's her fault; it's just simple practicality."
Post by
MyTie
that path
It's not the same path, it's not the same ballpark, not the same league, not even the same sport. just end up getting more ridiculous
I think it's ridiculous to think that women should wear provocative clothing. But, I don't say "well there is a slippery slope, and if we tell women to wear anything they want, pretty soon every single woman, even the babies, will be prostitutes", or inferring a slippery slope between the two. It's a dishonest argument. It's a straw man.The rapist saw her provocative clothing and was attracted to her. If she's covered her face, she might not have become a target. Again, not saying it's her fault; it's just simple practicality."
If these things are sometimes true, should we not say them because they are politically incorrect? And again, I'm not suggesting women cover their faces. I'm addressing the &*!@ walk. Stop trying to play my side of the argument to the extreme, and then force me to defend that position. I won't let you. Why don't you defend why you are on the path to making female babies prostitutes?
Post by
Skreeran
It's not the same path, it's not the same ballpark, not the same league, not even the same sport.Not talking about religion. Talking about over-modesty. It is most certainly the same path.
I think it's ridiculous to think that women should wear provocative clothing. But, I don't say "well there is a slippery slope, and if we tell women to wear anything they want, pretty soon every single woman, even the babies, will be prostitutes", or inferring a slippery slope between the two. It's a dishonest argument. It's a straw man.I don't think women
should
wear any particular type of clothing at all. I think women
should
decide for themselves what they want to wear. I don't want to foster any sort of cultural standard to push women to wear one fashion over another.
That's where we differ. You seem to want culture to set standards for how women should dress, and I think it's none of my business and that they should dress however they individually want to.
If these things are sometimes true, should we not say them because they are politically incorrect? And again, I'm not suggesting women cover their faces. I'm addressing the &*!@ walk. Stop trying to play my side of the argument to the extreme, and then force me to defend that position. I won't let you. Why don't you defend why you are on the path to making female babies prostitutes?Then explain to me how, if you had your way and culture just up and decided that women are going to be more modest from now on, the standards of provocative clothing would
not
change, and how it would
not
just put us back where we started, arguing that women should or should not be more modest?
Post by
MyTie
Then explain to me how, if you had your way and culture just up and decided that women are going to be more modest from now on
This wasn't my argument at all.
Post by
Skreeran
Then explain to me how, if you had your way and culture just up and decided that women are going to be more modest from now onThis wasn't my argument at all.Then perhaps you should explain it.
Post by
MyTie
Then perhaps you should explain it.
Let me try a new approach.
Pretend you have a 14 year old daughter, and she wants to go out, dressed like
this
(possibly NSFW). In your own words, explain what, if anything, is inappropriate about that.
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