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DK Tanking Weighted Stats
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Post by
Aris
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If you want to know how i got these updated numbers, read the thread. This is just for quick reference so people don't have to read through the whole thing to see the updated numbers.
Everyone reading this needs to understand this does not work like a dps weighted scale. This is a tool, you still need to use your brain to figure out what pieces are best for you in your specific situation.
There are things this scale is and is not. First it is not tailored to your specific stats or toon, its generic. It assumes you have no gear on and are trying to raise stats equally along the optimum ratio's. It also assumes you care to make your hit and expertise caps, if you dont then just remove those two weights. It also assumes you care more about having a maximum number of tanking stats in general over stacking a specific stat over others. It does not work like a dps weighted scale, the top item in each category is not necessarily the BiS for you. Its a tool, and like any tool you have to use it properly and understand how it works in order for it to do its job effectively. You also have to understand what it can and cannot do. Like for instance it cannot factor in race specific weapon expertise values. So for instance if your a human and your looking at the weapons you have to just know in the back of your head that all the swords and maces are going to be worth slightly more than what the scale says they are.
So with all its shortfalls then what is it even worth? Well its good for planning entire gear sets. For instance, you can modify the filter to include only items from a specific content you are raiding to figure out which set of items would meet your needs best. You can remove the hit and expertise values and get a better idea of what optimum avoidance set pieces are. You can modify stamina and armor to be a higher value to get an idea of what max effective health set pieces are. You can also use the raw ratio numbers and extrapolate them to your specific toons stats to figure out which stats are actually better for you point for point.
DK Tanking Weights
Dodge Rating: 1.875
Defense Rating: 1.875
Hit Rating: 1.8
Stamina: 1.3
Expertise: 1.18
Parry: 1
Strength: .25
Armor: .1
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So i've been asking around at tankspot and other places about weighted stats for DK Tanks. People reply back that its too subjective to put numbers on. That its going to be different depending on if your in an avoidance set, a threat set or a mitigation set, and then it's going to change again depending on if your frost, unholy or blood.
So then how did i come up with these numbers? I went to the sticky at the top of this forum, and pulled down the most recent weighted stats for the different DPS specs, and used those as a base to work from.
Next i decided i'd put "tanking stats" above the base dps "threat generation" stats to pull tanking items to the top of the lists. I started with a number i got from EJ about dodge to parry ratio for the upcomming 3.2 patch. It listed dodge to parry as 1.875 to 1. So i made Parry 10 right above melee dps, then rounded dodge off to 19. The same EJ post discussing changes in 3.2 to avoidance stats say defense is sometimes better and sometimes worse than dodge rating depending on how the numbers get rounded off. So i made defense rating the same as dodge rating. Next i increased the value of armor to 1. Then i wanted to increase agility to reflect the dodge you get from it. I went to wowwiki and found out that 73.5agi gives you 1% dodge, and 39.3 dodge rating gives you 1% dodge. It came out to agility being worth 53% as much as dodge rating. 53% of 19 came out to around 10, so i rounded it off to that. Last up was Stamina. This was a bit more arbitrary. To get this value i looked to the amount of stam given on a rare gem compared to the amount of dodge rating given on a rare gem. 19 value i gave dodge times 16 dodge rating on a gem is 304. 304/24=12.6 I personally feel stam is slightly better than dodge due to not having a DR like dodge does. So i rounded it up to 13.
Dodge Rating: 19
Defense Rating: 19
Stamina: 13
Agility: 10
Parry Rating: 10
Armor: 1
Refer to the Weighted Stats sticky at the top of this forum for your talent spec's DPS stats, then modify it by the above tanking weighted stats.
Frost Tanking
Unholy Tanking
Blood Tankinig
I havnt seen anyone, anywhere, even attempt to make weighted stats for DK Tanks, so if you can do better or see a mistake someplace that i made feel free to point it out.
If you want a more mitigation leaning scale, pump stamina up above dodge rating and increase armor a little.
If you want a more threat leaning scale, drop the tanking stats down so their more mixed into the threat gen stats. Just make sure if you do this to keep the ratio's the same between the tanking stats. (ie: 1.875 to 1 for dodge/parry). Defense/Dodge is the same, and Agility/Parry is the same, so it shouldn't be too dificult to do this.
Post by
svl007
several points are wrong with this.
one the weighted stats for dps are made in the top pve dps gear in the ideal dps build at least it is so at EJ and i'm pretty sure lynri has just copied em from there.
so to start with those dps or threat values are wrong for someone sporting tank gear/spec.
second you even state this one yourself. you can't give stat weights for tanks that always work unlike for dps. dps job is always the same: do the most dmg. a tanks job isn't some encounters require less survival and more threat and vice versa. and then there are differences in how to achieve the most survival depending on the encounter.
third you don't have DR worked into your weights and therefor they won't give accurate advice.
lastly you'd need several weights if they actually where usefull taking into consideration melee hit cap, spell hit cap, expertise soft cap, expertise hard cap.
at best this weights can give a quick glance at what there is for gear to get, but anyone serious about tanking shouldn't rely on this to gear himself.
Post by
Aris
Defense Rating, Dodge Rating, Parry Rating, and Agility are all calculated to account for DR. Stam and Armor don't have a DR. So yes the figures do account for DR. The exact number is 1.875, which i rounded off to 1.9 and scaled up.
The way I've read the weightings over at EJ is its all based on nothing being capped, and are generalized so that it works for any piece of gear and is not gear specific like you say.
I listed a separate scale for each talent tree, and detailed how you could modify them slightly to adjust for different armor sets like avoidance/mitigation/threat. By default the way i have them set up, they lean more towards avoidance.
It doesn't work exactly like a dps weight scale, you cant just take the top item from each category and put them all together to have the best tanking set. But you can take each category and use them individually to compare a specific item you have against an item you have access to possibly upgrade to and wither or not it is an upgrade at all. You'll still have to factor in things like hit/expertise caps like you said.
I never said it was perfect, but considering no one else anywhere has anything at all, it at least gives you something. The tanking only stats i listed are correctly weighted to each other, and the dps stats are correctly weighted to themselves. The exact weighting between the two sets of scales is going to depend a lot on personal preference. The best way to combine the two is probably to somehow have a threat/avoidance slider that meshes the two depending on your personal preference between the two.
Post by
295513
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
frmorrison
wow... u guys are crazy. how do you figure stuff like this out. I understand theorycrafting and all, but why bother doing this... when you could go be a civil engineer or an architect or nuclear physicist? I just try out different pieces, and see what generates the most survivability or threat... for different encounters. sheesh... but kudos on understanding stuff like this.
What if you are already an Engineer and still like crunching numbers? Rather than waste time/money on new pieces, you can use mathematics to help you know what is "best".
= 0.3,
= 0.5,
= 0.3,
= 4,
= 0.25,
= 0.3,
= 0.35,
= 0.24,
= 1.2,
= 0.12,
= 0.1,
Post by
svl007
Defense Rating, Dodge Rating, Parry Rating, and Agility are all calculated to account for DR. Stam and Armor don't have a DR. So yes the figures do account for DR. The exact number is 1.875, which i rounded off to 1.9 and scaled up.
The way I've read the weightings over at EJ is its all based on nothing being capped, and are generalized so that it works for any piece of gear and is not gear specific like you say.
I listed a separate scale for each talent tree, and detailed how you could modify them slightly to adjust for different armor sets like avoidance/mitigation/threat. By default the way i have them set up, they lean more towards avoidance.
It doesn't work exactly like a dps weight scale, you cant just take the top item from each category and put them all together to have the best tanking set. But you can take each category and use them individually to compare a specific item you have against an item you have access to possibly upgrade to and wither or not it is an upgrade at all. You'll still have to factor in things like hit/expertise caps like you said.
I never said it was perfect, but considering no one else anywhere has anything at all, it at least gives you something. The tanking only stats i listed are correctly weighted to each other, and the dps stats are correctly weighted to themselves. The exact weighting between the two sets of scales is going to depend a lot on personal preference. The best way to combine the two is probably to somehow have a threat/avoidance slider that meshes the two depending on your personal preference between the two.
how can you say you calculate for DR but have a set value for dodge rating? if you would have said dodge% then sure, but now you haven't accounted for DR
2nd they go out from not being capped. however they do go out from starting stats only attainable from being geared already. this is very easy to asses bc not, 1crit value would be 0 bc a crit of 0 dmg is still 0
Post by
Aris
how can you say you calculate for DR but have a set value for dodge rating? if you would have said dodge% then sure, but now you haven't accounted for DR
I'm just using other people's work over at EJ. the 1 to 1.875 for parry/dodge is accounting DR for patch 3.2. In that same post they described defense rating being sometimes better and sometimes worse than dodge rating depending on how the rating numbers get rounded off, so i just made them the same. Is it exact? No, but its as close to a figure for defense rating as your going to get.
The agility figure is based off the dodge rating figured out over at EJ. They both effect the same stat, and the dodge rating stat is accounting for DR, thus the agility is accounting for DR.
If you think the numbers are wrong, feel free to argue with the guys over at EJ, they know much more about this stuff than i do. I did round numbers off a bit. If you wanna be more exact, the numbers would look like this:
Dodge Rating: 18.75
Defense Rating: 18.75
Stamina: 12.5
Agility: 10.03
Parry: 10
Armor: 1
Post by
186549
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
Elitist Jerks' DK Tanking sticky thinks Killing Machine only procs off White Hits.
Generally I don't think it's a great idea to worship them like some altar of perfection.
I don't worship them, but no one else on the net even tries to figure out things like this. That was what i was facing. No one on any website anywhere even tries to put a figure on these stats, I'm just doing what i can. It might not be perfect, but its something.
Now if your a person that can do it better, then by all means, show me exactly where i went wrong and what numbers should be on each stat. I'll be more than grateful.
Post by
186549
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
Plus you didn't include the changes in 3.2; where Dodge and Parry will be nearly equal in value before Diminishing Returns.
Yes i did, i stated already that the numbers are factored on the changees in 3.2. Parry is not equal to dodge because the DR of parry is still nearly twice as much than dodge. So while the values themselves are the same, the DR against them are still very much different.
Post by
414927
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svl007
u guys are partially right! u just need to read the PTR carefully :)
parry and dodge start as equal but still parry diminishes on a much steeper curve
Still one point i need to inquire about, how did u factor in the weight the diminishing returns?
another thing, though weights are good for tanks but its not like dps, just solid figures. I believe you need to keep a healthy balance between all stats. i.e. u cant have 50% avoidance and 23k health and u cant have 33k health and 10% avoidance (yes i know its impossible to do both, am just proving a point)
so basically you might sometimes choose to ignore the nice avoidance gained by an item for some extra hp even though the weights suggest otherwise :)
But still thank you for running the numbers, i always wondered where defence rates to dodge in terms of avoidance
he factored it in like EJ did it extremly stupid way. the way they do it is as follow.
you give yourself an equipment, at that time you calculate the values. so you can say they factored in DR, but that's just for one gear setup. and doesn't account for DR one the way to that equipment, nor when your gear surpasses that gear setup. it only is correct for that exact gear setup.
aris i'm not gonna give values bc i think it's stupid.
i'd rather have ppl download the addon tank points so they can see the breakdown of their stats and go from there so they can decide what is an upgrade from what they are wearing. (note i said the breakdown, the tankpoints themself are not ideal either)
i'll include a pic as example
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6620/statszmo.png
edit: don't use these values since i'm not fully buffed in here nor is it any usefull to you unless you have the exact same gear/enchant/gems as me
Post by
Aris
I agree nothing will be perfect if you don't take into account your own stats. Like for instance, if your already hit capped, then obviously hit doesn't mean anything to you anymore. This is something you just have to know in the back of your head though when you look at the list. But having a set of weighted stats can help people plan for gear upgrades in the future. While a specific item may not be an upgrade for your current gear set, it may be after you also pick up some more pieces of gear from the content your doing. This is why i think its important to have weights for gear.
slv you say weighted stats are stupid, then you say to use an addon, which guess what, uses weighted stats to figure out its points for gear. Granted the addon likely takes into account your current stats when you gives you its value, but it still has a set of weighted stats working in the background to give you that value. So obviously its not stupid.
I was going over it again, taking into account svl007's idea that the dps weights are based on your ability to meet moderate dps stats, which makes sense, but may not be possible with tanking gear. So i came up with something a bit more generic. I took the exact same tanking stats that seem to line up well considering DR and all.
I took out AGI because the only things that are really going to have AGI that you would use as a tank are weapons, and the only real tanking 2h'er with AGI on it is Inevitable Defeat. If you leave AGI in it pushes a bunch of obvious dps weapons and armor to the top. I then filtered out anything with resilience on it focusing more on PVE.
I then scaled all the tanking stats down based around a 1 for parry and then 1.875 for dodge/defense rating. I then wanted to weight hit and expertise more assuming most tanks will want to hit the 263 hit cap and the 214 expertise soft cap. I placed hit below defense/dodge so that wowhead wouldn't put hit/expertise gems into sockets, and started with hit at 1.8. Then i took the fact that frost/unholy will get 5 expertise from talents so you would only need 173 expertise rating to hit the soft cap. I know blood gets 1 extra expertise skill point from talents, but i figured that expertise will be slightly more important for blood anyhow so the slightly higher value compared to if i factored in a lower expertise amount needed would balance themselves out. So i took 173/263=.6577. .6577*1.8=1.18. Thats how i got the expertise and hit values, balancing them out assuming you'd want to hit each cap and that you need less expertise than hit to make both caps. Strength gives DK's .25 parry rating per point, so i made the Strength value based off the value of 1 for parry rating.
I took the other dps stats out because i didn't see much value in them for tanking. I figure for tanking your going to want reliable threat gen through hit/expertise caps, more than you would for maximum threat possible but more spiky and less dependable like it would be if you didn't cap hit and expertise in favor of other threat gen stats.
DK Tanking Weights
Dodge Rating: 1.875
Defense Rating: 1.875
Hit Rating: 1.8
Stamina: 1.3
Expertise: 1.18
Parry: 1
Strength: .25
Armor: .1
I like this scale much better. I look through the categories and it just makes more sense.
Post by
414927
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
I dont want to state the obvious but, for example, parry at a certain point gives more avoidance than dodge (when u have tons of dodge and no parry at all) this would make using the weights kind of misleading.
The weights i listed do in fact take this into account. 1 to 1.875 is the difference where 1 point of dodge is no longer better than 1 point of parry. You have to extrapolate it to your current stats.
For example, say you have 300 parry rating and you want to know when 1 point of parry ratting will be better than 1 point of dodge rating. 300*1.875=562. So if you have 300 parry rating, and more than 562 dodge rating, then 1 point of parry will give you more avoidance than 1 point of dodge.
I really don't know why people keep saying the values don't take DR into account, when it does. This is for patch 3.2 though, so until 3.2 goes live parry is worth even less than this.
Post by
414927
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svl007
@aris note how i said only to look at the breakdown and not the tankpoints.
only thing i use from that addon is what i linked. it shows me how much avoidance i'd gain if i would add 16dodge rating/parry rating/... at my current gear lvl. basicly relieving me of having to calculate it myself each time
The weights i listed do in fact take this into account. 1 to 1.875 is the difference where 1 point of dodge is no longer better than 1 point of parry. You have to extrapolate it to your current stats.
For example, say you have 300 parry rating and you want to know when 1 point of parry ratting will be better than 1 point of dodge rating. 300*1.875=562. So if you have 300 parry rating, and more than 562 dodge rating, then 1 point of parry will give you more avoidance than 1 point of dodge.
I really don't know why people keep saying the values don't take DR into account, when it does. This is for patch 3.2 though, so until 3.2 goes live parry is worth even less than this.
what is it that you don't understand? just a real simple example.
tankA has 100parry rating and 100dodge rating
in this example adding 1 dodge rating will net the tank the most avoidance gain.
tankB has 100parry rating and 100000000000dodge rating.
now in this example adding 1 parry rating will net the tank the most avoidance gain.
now your weightscale would still say adding 1dodge rating is way better then adding 1 parry rating in example B. conclusion your weight scale doesn't account for DR beyond the gear set it was made for.
now the weight scale you found at EJ or whereever was made for a specific gear set. like fe the image i posted above and then calculated the relative value of each defense stat against each other. this means the weight scale is only true for that specific gear set and is wrong for another gear set. the closer you are to the original gear set the more truth can be found in it, but it only shows the whole truth for that specific gear set.
i'm sorry but i can't make this any more clear then this
Post by
Eleazer
I am once again going to have to disagree with Aris which is understandably is happening in almost every post he makes. There is a reason there is no weighted stats for Tanking because it continuously changes based upon what your responsibilities are and what your gear has given you.
You also never took into account threat generation. I know you assume that tanks naturally generate a large amount of threat magically, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Strength is still a valuable threat generation tool, and in some regards is better than dodge or parry depending on gear level and the group you are running with.
There is a reason dps has specific BiS gear and and tanks have 3 or 4 depending on role within the raid and depending on which raid you are going for.
Finally Svl is correct in that you never factor in diminishing returns, also for a large portion of our tanking life Stamina is the number one priority until you reach a certain point where diminishing returns takes over. This is the reason even EJ's who does a majority of the math spends so little time correcting the inaccuracies in their tanking threads.
Tanking gear and stats are so much more variable and subjective than DPS is because are job is so much more variable and subjective. If I were to follow your spread sheet, than i would be walking around with a ton of dodge - defense and 24k stamina this would be fine except I would get two shot on some bosses.
While your intention is appreciated there are just too many variable to give exact tanking stat weights.
BTW these have already been posted on the forums under
Death Knight FAQ
Post by
Aris
tankB has 100parry rating and 100000000000dodge rating.
now in this example adding 1 parry rating will net the tank the most avoidance gain.
now your weightscale would still say adding 1dodge rating is way better then adding 1 parry rating in example B. conclusion your weight scale doesn't account for DR beyond the gear set it was made for.
Its just like any stat. If your hit capped hit isnt worth hardly anything anymore, if your expertise soft capped then expertise isnt worth as much anymore. You have to know in the back of your head what caps are, and what ratio's are. The ratio is obvious with the weighted scale of 1 to 1.875, so you have to extrapolate that scale to your gear to figure out if you want parry in place of dodge.
Odds are though you'll never run into this scenario unless you are purposely gimping yourself by taking subpar gear to completely avoid anything with parry rating on it. Parry still has a value, and as you can see from the lists, there are pieces of gear at the tops of them with parry.
900 Strength in tanking gear isnt very hard to attain, and 900strength as a DK is going to give you a minimum of 225 parry rating even if you have no pieces of gear with parry rating on it. Which means you'd need to have 422 dodge rating with zero parry rating from gear before you would reach this theoretical scenario you speak of. I'm in full 25man naxx and 10man ulduar gear and i dont have 422 dodge rating yet. I could see other tanking classes run into this issue more often because they dont get parry from strength, but for DK's which is what this scale is for, your really never going to run into this scenario. I have 530 parry rating, and i dont gem for it or intentionally gear for it. I'd need to have 994 dodge rating before parry started to be worth more point for point.
If you nay sayers dont like, then dont use it. Personally i see great value in it. It helps me plan out my gear progression and my ultimate BiS's. If you are unable to see the value, then just simply ignore it, but its here for people who can use it. I look at the lists this weighted scale creates and it makes everything clear on what exactly i need to strive for. So if nothing else this will just be a shortcut link for my own purposes so i dont have to fill in the weighted points every single time i come to wowhead.
i might be missing something, but are u assuming a straight line plot with different slopes? i dont think this the case, actually the plot itself is curved.
The ideal ratio is the same. You want to strive for 1 to 1.875 the same way you strive for 263 hit rating and 214 expertise. The ratio weights the stats so that, in an ideal world, you would end up with 1.875 times more dodge than parry and be perfectly balanced between the two. Its like the 1.18 expertise to 1.8 hit, its setup so that if that ratio is followed exactly you will hit both caps at the same time and achieve the optimum balance between the two. Just because dodge is weighted more than parry doesn't mean its auto going to pick every piece of gear with dodge and not parry. Parry still has a value and when combined with all the other stats a piece of gear with parry and not dodge may in fact be better than a piece of gear with dodge and no parry.
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