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10.2.5
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Deep fire pvp glyphs
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Post by
359074
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Post by
Madmick
I dunno, I have to admit, I've never really figured fire pvp out. BG's are still my strongest suit- I'm almost always in the top 3 in killing blows with my 57-3-11 Arc spec, and usually the leader. So even though I suck at fire, when I've tried it out, I've done okay. I usually manage about the top end of the middle of the pack; comparative to my Arc play, I do better in terms of overall damage than killing blows.
As far as your build, I think it's just too heavy into fire, but I guess there's some guys who really like that. My deep fire spec saw about 60 points sunk into fire, I think. I do think there are some things you can do immediately:
The Obvious Stuff (in my opinion)
1) Free up 5 points, easy, by taking them out of Improved Fireball. You will not be casting fireballs in PvP. You could stack haste until your eyes bleed and it just still wouldn't be quick enough for the small windows of time PvP play provides. To supplement Fire Blast: Scorch is your spammer for a Hot Streak.
2) Of course you'll also drop Empowered Fire, now. You won't be casting Fireballs because they're too damn slow, and you won't be casting Frostfire bolts because you can get locked out of the two spell schools that matter to you. The mana refund effect from this talent would be much better spent by investing the extra 2 points into your Master of the Elements talent.
3) Get rid of Firestarter. That talent sucks. Flamestrike blows in PvP. That's 2 more points.
So now you've committed 2 more points to Master of the Elements (which you could probably go without, but mana's always useful, and can be used for life via Mana Shield, so you want to have it). And you've freed up 8 points after doing that.
The less obvious stuff is where you put these points, now. You really have two choices, IMO.
Choice #1
You can take 2 in Frostbite to open the second tier, then put 2-3 in Precision, depending on how much hit you happen to have on your gear, and the rest into Permafrost (which will enhance your Cone of Colds and also Lvl 1 Frostbolts if you spam those for some kiting control). Take Icy veins. Voila.
Choice #2
Go into the Arcane tree. Every talent is obvious if you do. Take Arcane Focus and Arcane Subtlety in the first tier. Take Arcane Fortitude and Magic Absorption in the 2nd. That gets you to Focus Magic.
I'd recommend the first build. The enhanced Lvl 1 Frostbolts were the only way I could stay alive a lot of the time. You also you get Ice Floes, which is hands down the best talent in any of the first tiers. It's sick. Arcane Subtlety is sick for arenas, but it doesn't really matter for BG's. Arcane Focus is meh. The armor from Arcane Fortitude sucks because you wear Molten Armor. Magic Absorption and Focus Magic are really nice (especially if you have a Destro Lock you roll with). But it's just much weaker than the Fire + frost.
GLYPHS
#1= Glyph of Living Bomb
This one is obvious.
As for the 2nd, it's not so clear.
#2= Glyph of Improved Scorch
This one is nice because it's good to get the Scorch bonus right away, but since Scorch is your spammer, it's not essential.
#2a= Glyph of Molten Armor
Extra damage is good, sure. But even with a 2-piece Conqueror set on as a complement, you're not gonna have that much spirit in PvP gear. Otherwise this would be a very strong glyph.
#2b= Glyph of Blink
As fire, it's difficult to create distance, so the blink can be a lifesaver. But IMO, this is a much stronger glyph for Arc mages and especially Frost mages.
#2c= Glyph of Polymorph
If suddenly someone shows up and messes up a fight, you don't want living bomb breaking a guy out if it only makes sense to poly the guy you were just casting that on.
#2d= Glyph of Mana Gem
Always a viable option.
Yeah, so there's the fire build I used:
0-60-11 Fire PvP Spec
Post by
359074
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Post by
371537
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Post by
Madmick
Well, I wasn't trying to come across as uppity, but it's just that I've never been in a BG where I saw another mage casting fireballs as their main dmg casting time spell- either on my team or theirs- that finished impressively in the ranks. I've paid quite careful attention to the fire mages who I come across that do succeed, and usually they're using scorch as their spammer and throwing living bomb on motherf*cking everybody.
I certainly have no difficulty dispatching mages who try to cast fireball on me.
My thing is this: if you really have so much time to cast on someone who isn't paying attention to you, then is that 1/2 second really limiting you in your bombing that much? Also, I don't really see the point in playing this way since it would be just so much more effective and successful to approach your opponents with that playstyle as Arcane. Arcblast + Missile Barrage is just a better single-target killer for that. Let the DK's and Warlocks worry about putting total dps pressure on their team in group fights. Your job is to kill the healer.
I tried several builds built around fireball, and I found all of them to be basically unplayable.
Post by
371537
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Post by
87278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Madmick
I'm amazed nobody has suggested the Evocation Glyph.
It's a must have for any PvP spec, and a spec which takes damage and relies on mana shield so much should never be without it.
My other choices for Majors would personally be Polymorph and Living Bomb.
Being able to reset a fight against a dotted target is invaluable.
Somebody did mention the evocation glyph. I did. I mentioned it when I was commenting on which glyphs I thought would best complement it. He'd already selected Evocation. You would have known that if you clicked on his link.
In other words, you contribution here was pretty much totally useless.
Wait, is that harsh? Sorry, I've lived in this culture for many years. If you're gonna write, be willing to read. That's all that I ask.
Post by
292516
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Post by
Madmick
I'm not saying to just spam fireball, but it shouldn't be ignored. In 1v1, if I use Frost Nova (against mele type), Fireblast (with stun), or Dragon's Breath, I usually follow up with fireball. Otherwise ya, Scorch would probably be better if you are being hit.
And in BGs, while healers aren't nonexistant, they still aren't very popular that I've found, so overall damage is still pretty handy. And if I'm just picking out the healer, I'm assuming it's to stop him from healing, not causing damage, I'm more likely to use FB over Scorch anyway cuz I think it's just bigger damage and better DPM, even if just slightly slower. If the healer has to stop to heal himself, then he's not healing others, and eventually someone is going to die and just make it that much easier to get their group.
I dunno, I'm not saying my way is the best way to go, just that fireball isn't useless. And as for killing any other mage that uses fireball against you, I usually do pretty well against any frost mage spamming frostbolt.
I don't think that fireball is useless. I guess I should be more clear. It's not that I didn't use fireball at all, but it's that I didn't use it nearly enough to justify committing 5 talent points to it. I suppose if a Dragon's Breath + Fireball is a common tactic you use, then you should adjust accordingly. In other words, if you need the diminished casting time with the haste you're stacking to get that fireball off before your opponent comes out of the stun, then use it. Otherwise, it's wasted talent points. Why would you commit points there when it deprives you of the abliity to get deep enough into Frost to get Icy Veins? I guarantee with Icy Veins that you will do more for your overall damage (if damage is your chief concern).
My point that I didn't emphasize (since it applies more generally, and not just to this Fire PvP question): as a mage, your job isn't total DPS. Really, as anything, that's not your job. Your job is to kill people. Who cares if you laid out a plague that did a million damage if all you achieved is to temporarily diminish the lifebars of all your opponents before they received a Tranquility from their Druid Healer? You were far less useful than the DPS who did less than 1/2 as much damage but actually managed to kill someone before he died.
Healers might not be popular, but they're game-changers. My point was to emphasize that if you select fireball, you're really parlaying a style of play the caters more to single target damage. Don't get me wrong, I like that kind of damage. It's more useful, IMO. But as fire, it's not your strong suit to play to that. You're going to be throwing out Living Bombs a lot. Basically, with my build, you're more suited for total damage with the ability to deal with a single pursuer. With your build, you're able to do better single target damage, but only if they're not paying attention to you. Even if you're good, with that build, you shouldn't be able to handle a competent opponent who decides he wants you to die.
Also, I understand that sometimes by putting pressure on a healer, the rest of your team is able to make their targets die since he can't focusing on healing them. But often, he just heals himself enough to stay alive and then heals them enough to make sure your group goes down before his group. Arenas make this kind of play terribly exciting: switching back and forth between DPS and Healer while trying to Damage/CC them accordingly. Your total damage in BG's matters very little. Overall Damage is a PvE thing. Intelligent Damage is a PvP thing. If you ever play with presets, you know that simply getting everyone to target the healer(s) simultaneously (then moving on to the next target) is by far the most efficient form of downing the other team.
I understand if you thing the Fireball talent should be included. But for that recommendation to be meanginful, you have to discuss the opportunity cost. What talents do you suggest he sacrifice to liberate those 5 points? What is he giving up to get that?
Post by
Madmick
Hey I don't go around giving people advice, how about you don't step on my toes and insult people.
Why are you f*cking talking to me? Why are you in this thread?
Post by
87278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Madmick
Well, I wasn't trying to come across as uppity
In other words, you contribution here was pretty much totally useless.
Ouch. All because I didn't click your spec. I assumed if you were to talk so heavily about virtually irrelevant glyph options, and call Living Bomb a must-have, then you would take some time to call the Evocation Glyph a must have, or at least suggest it in some way.
Just take a deep breath man. Really.
No, because you didn't click
his
spec. Evocate is the one glyph he included in his build.
Your sin isn't cardinal, or anything, and as far as I can remember pertaining to your byline, you're a good poster, but this was a careless post. It annoys me because I've been a moderator on a website outside this one for years, and it's just a relentless habit that gluts threads with mostly useless and already discussed information.
I pointed this out in my original post addressing you. Just more obnoxiously. Still, the meat was there that justified the post. So I don't know why you think I'm the !@#$%^& when all I did was point out how you didn't respect any of us with that lack of attentiveness. And I don't know why this #$%^ing MageCorruption is talking to me.
Post by
292516
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Post by
178827
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
359074
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
87278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Madmick
So Madmick, I heard my talking makes you mad so I dropped in to say hi.
Paladin forums ->
Makes me mad? No, I just don't understand it. Unless you're just trolling, in which case...blah, it just makes you pathetic. You lost an argument to me. Get over it.
Post by
Madmick
I find it funny how you write an incredibly large amount about how my short post was useless, when you've written literally walls of text on Battleground Theory,
which is about as useful as HIV
and have tried justifying being a total jerk, lol.
Choo choo, hypocrisy train.
The OG poster asked about glyphs pertaining to a fire pvp spec because "I'm doing BGs because I'm not pro enough for arenas". Should I discuss Arena theory to a poster who specifically asked for help with BG's? You've just insulted his preferred mode of play.
Again, you expect me to accept your accusation of hypocrisy when you're the one being an a$$hole. I'm not that stupid.
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