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[Closed] Gathering data: Retribution.
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Post by
179128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
00bender00
Well Atremini took the effort to read and understand my post it seems, the other two however, didnt.
First off you cant theorycraft pvp and that's a matter of fact. Speccing with weird talents specs like 1/2 vindication for dispel fodder, 1/2 eye41eye to poof grounding totems, RNG dispel resistance etc. should explain itself.
Ret's usual time on target isnt that constant as a rogue (see poisons, low cd stuns), of a dk (chains of ice, ams, death grip, desecration, chillblains, glyph of heart strike. lichborne), of an enh shammy (frost shock, frozen power, earthen power, grounding totem), of a warrior (hamstring, berserker's rage, charge/intercept) etc etc.
You may swing once, then you get feared and what can you do about it?
If you get frost novaed, your gcd goes on cleanse(s) (and not on hand of freedom, if you dont know why, research), your target has already moved out of range meanwhile.
If you play against proper opponents you will be constantly snared/kited/cc'd ideally, because you just can do nothing against it besides using more and more globals to get unstuck IF and WHEN you are in control of your actions.
And when i finally get to hit my opponent, i want to hit hard with my divine storm + judgement + auto attack + seal, because when 3 seconds have passed i will be probably seduced, or sheeped, or hexed, or feared. That's why you use 2 handers in pvp. You dont often have much time on target.
If you play 3v3 as prot, with a warrior / rogue of any spec well that's different. You can add your partner's abilities to your powerhouse and start reasoning differently, gaining utility at the expense of a dangerous type of mana regen (sheeped > seduced > bye bye divine plea, 45 secs OOM here i come).
There's no theorycrafting answer because there's no theorycrafting dps in pvp.
Post by
svirve
Am i the only one that missed were blademeld (THE OP) said this was for PvP?
Post by
Squishalot
By definition, you can model anything. It just takes a more complicated theorycrafting model.
Just like the work we did on SoB vs SoC. You can theorycraft burst based on chance of procs, and tell you that 16% of the time, SoC will be better when you have 4.5s of ToT, from a burst perspective. It's just not as flexible, because it won't apply the same way between fighting Mages as opposed to fighting Warriors, or any of the examples you pointed out.
Fact of the matter is though, you can model it. Therefore, you can theorycraft it. blademeld is using a simulation model, implying that you can run it under different circumstances for different calculations, so you can measure which is more effective over 2secs, 5 secs, 15 secs, whatever you like.
Anything else, and it's just a question of how complicated do you want to make things. Saying 'you can't theorycraft PvP' is like saying you can't model the weather. It's complicated, it's not going to work every time, but you can still do it and get a reasonable, meaningful result most of the time.
Post by
blademeld
Just because I said that "it might be applicable for PvP" doesn't mean I intended it for PvP
@00bender00, I said 250 DPS not a big loss at PvP against melee in exchange for being able to use a shield, I never said that the theorycraft was intended for PvP, see what svirve said. Also, like Squishlot said, ShoR is a decent burst, especially for opponents with high armor.
You guys just flamed him for no reason other than to one up him for having a different point of view.
No, he was flamed for bursting in here and saying "Everything you did was pointless" with misconceptions from reading one line.
If Im not mistaken blademeld doesnt play very often and he has said so himself.
Yes, but what does this have to do with anything?
Did he consider Bender's point of view? This was a good discussion untill the 2 above posters took offense of one opposing view and tried to act like smartasses.
Why do I have to consider someone else's point of view for theorycrafting? As far as I'm concerned, they had the right to act like smartasses as 00bender00 came in here bashing without provocation.
Post by
blademeld
You may swing once, then you get feared and what can you do about it?
If you get frost novaed, your gcd goes on cleanse(s) (and not on hand of freedom, if you dont know why, research), your target has already moved out of range meanwhile.
And when i finally get to hit my opponent, i want to hit hard with my divine storm + judgement + auto attack + seal, because when 3 seconds have passed i will be probably seduced, or sheeped, or hexed, or feared. That's why you use 2 handers in pvp. You dont often have much time on target.
OH &*!@ I DIDN'T KNOW THAT MELEE COULD FEAR, FROST NOVA, KITE, SEDUCE, SHEEP
I have no idea why those are the examples when the statement was "workable against melee"
Post by
00bender00
OH &*!@ I DIDN'T KNOW THAT MELEE COULD FEAR, FROST NOVA, KITE, SEDUCE, SHEEP
I have no idea why those are the examples when the statement was "workable against melee"
No, but they disarm, hungering cold, dismantle, gouge, hammer of justice, repentance, shield block etc etc... Its not only pure CCs that can prevent your theory from working.
blademeld: you can theorycraft weather but you cant theorycraft human reactions.
Anyways, i didnt flame, assault, caps or scream at anybody. I just said theorycrafting pvp is pointless, and anyone with a little pvp / arena experience should know that.
Post by
blademeld
No, but they disarm, hungering cold, dismantle, gouge, hammer of justice, repentance, shield block etc etc... Its not only pure CCs that can prevent your theory from working.
Disarm:
requires defensive stance
(meaning a warrior probably won't do this often), duration 5 seconds (with PoJ), downside of using a 2h: less armor, no ShoR benefits of using a 2h: none
Dismantle: 5 second disarm no benefits or downsides of either weapon
Gouge, Hungering Cold, Repentance: all breaks on damage
Shield block: ShoR > 2h CS, DS.
That's right, more benefit from 1h/shield.
I just said theorycrafting pvp is pointless, and anyone with a little pvp / arena experience should know that.
And that's why people theorycrafted SoR versus SoComm
amiright?
Also, I said this wasn't for PvP, get that out of your head.
Post by
00bender00
Go on pushing experienced people out of these board, so you can talk of your own world of warcraft.
You and others turned this forum into your own fantasy club, with your rudeness, freaking out at people with different points of view.
Hell, even people on Blizzard's board are more polite then your club.
Post by
Squishalot
*cough* bender, you were the one who appeared and started freaking out that someone would consider theorycrafting in a PvP space.
Seriously though. The modelling can be done, irrespective of whether it applies all the time or not. So there's no point making a flat out "theorycrafting for PvP is useless" statement, when it's blatantly false. Like I said earlier, a simple example of 'pointless theorycrafting' would be the choice between SoB and SoC for PvP. Would you say that was a useless result?
Now, if you want to discuss about prot's utility, more then welcome.
But ret sword and board arena is nothing you should spend your time theorycrafting on.
So, are you saying that Ret sword and board sucks, or are you saying that you can't theorycraft in PvP? Because if it's the former, you can't demonstrate that except through experience (have you tried with the T10 bonus?), and if it's the latter, then a discussion about Prot's utility in Arena can't be done either, by your definition.
Post by
blademeld
Go on pushing experienced people out of these board,
so you can talk of your own world of warcraft.
You and others turned this forum into
your own fantasy club, with your rudeness
,
freaking out at people with different points of view.
Hell, even people on Blizzard's board are more polite then your club.
What drugs were you on?
Firstly, if I was theorycrafting 1h PvP, then I would have the different point of view, not you.
You can't even put together a logical argument.
Like Gordon Ramsay says: $%^& off.
Post by
svirve
Go on pushing experienced people out of these board,
so you can talk of your own world of warcraft.
You and others turned this forum into
your own fantasy club, with your rudeness
,
freaking out at people with different points of view.
Hell, even people on Blizzard's board are more polite then your club.
What drugs were you on?
Firstly, if I was theorycrafting 1h PvP, then I would have the different point of view, not you.
You can't even put together a logical argument.
Like Gordon Ramsay says: $%^& off.
you're awesome
svirve
blademeld.
Post by
blademeld
@00bender00
I raged over another thread again, went over the top, I must apologize.
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