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Bubble mechanic change in arena
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Post by
spcmack
I havent read this, ever, and i suspect its because the very possibility of mentioning it may rip a fabric in the space time something or other.
I will lead off by saying I do not believe bubble belongs in pvp, in any form. I feel the same way about my hunters beloved detterance, and a handful of other abilities that just make you wonder, what the hell was that...
The argument that you can break bubble with a warrior, or priest is totally invalid here. Compare the number of arena teams running with a paladin, to the number running with either a priest or a warrior. There is just no way to load one of them into every arena team, because you know out of your ten games, seven of them will have you fighting a paladin.
Yes I concede that at least now SOMEONE can break bubble. And yes paladins do reduced damage while bubbled. Those are more band aid than solution though.
As bursty as arenas are now, it seems that paladins are the only healing class capable of surviving the initial burst thrown on them, which is why they are on every team, because with an assured 6 seconds of healing, they will always get something off.
End state, I feel bubble should cut all of your stats in half, except stamina, for the duration of the bubble, perhaps longer, similar to aspect of the vipers effect. That would cut down on those prot specs that you got down to 1k by some miracle, healing themselves back up to 30k before their bubble breaks.
OR...Bubble should become a self inflicted cyclone, that you can run during. Fine, your invincible, and you can run away from me, but you should not be doing much of anything else. I dont even think you should be able to recieve beneficial spells through the bubble. If bad magic cant get through, then why does good?
You also should not be able to bubble silenced...i mean...really?
Effectively paladins are actually invincible for a period of time. Obviously. I just dont see how that is reasonable. If you need a change somewhere else to bring you on par with the other melee classes as far as 1v1 goes, fine. Lets make those changes. A talent under prot that makes you more resistant to ranged attacks? Done! Maybe even a very minor damage bump?...to every spec except for ret...Done...
Flame on you cute little johny storms, Im sure theres a bunch of negative responses to the posibility of a world without that warm safe bubble.
edited: because i type like an epileptic monkey.
Post by
463852
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Diddums. Let's go through, shall we?
As bursty as arenas are now, it seems that paladins are the only healing class capable of surviving the initial burst thrown on them, which is why they are on every team, because with an assured 6 seconds of healing, they will always get something off.
Paladins also have crap burst now. It's fairly safe to say that Disc Priests and Resto Druids are also capable of surviving significant burst.
End state, I feel bubble should cut all of your stats in half, except stamina, for the duration of the bubble, perhaps longer, similar to aspect of the vipers effect. That would cut down on those prot specs that you got down to 1k by some miracle, healing themselves back up to 30k before their bubble breaks.
I thought you didn't believe that Bubble should belong in PvP in any form? But with that in mind, prot-healing specs have been nerfed already in other areas.
OR...Bubble should become a self inflicted cyclone, that you can run during. Fine, your invincible, and you can run away from me, but you should not be doing much of anything else.
Vanish. Invincible (now that it's not bugged), you can run, and not only that, you can prepare your best CC and hits again. What makes Bubble any worse?
Effectively paladins are actually invincible for a period of time. Obviously. I just dont see how that is reasonable.
Most classes have an absorb effect or immunity to CC effect, in various shapes and forms. They have these on CDs < 1 minute, so that they can be used frequently. Paladins have an immunity effect. This is on a 5 minute cooldown, similar to Vanish (which I've already noted, has similar characteristics that you're complaining about). If this is the worst thing to deal with in PvP, then boo hoo, QQ moar and have fun drowning in your tears.
And pray you never run across a PvE spec'd Prot paladin in PvP.
Post by
spcmack
alright pumkin...lets review...
Effectively paladins are actually invincible for a period of time. Obviously. I just dont see how that is reasonable.
Most classes have an absorb effect or immunity to CC effect, in various shapes and forms. They have these on CDs < 1 minute, so that they can be used frequently. Paladins have an immunity effect. This is on a 5 minute cooldown, similar to Vanish (which I've already noted, has similar characteristics that you're complaining about). If this is the worst thing to deal with in PvP, then boo hoo, QQ moar and have fun drowning in your tears.
And pray you never run across a PvE spec'd Prot paladin in PvP.
Like i said in the second paragraph, i hate every one of those oh $%^& buttons, but other than the mages ice block (where he can do NOTHING) no one else is outright untouchable. Even with detterance up for a hunter, warriors just spam over power through it and can kill you no sweat, dots still tick, and you can still be aoed to death.
your argument about the cool downs being shorter for the other classes is just stupid, it doesnt matter. When have you ever seen a mage get off two ice blocks in an arena? two detterances for a hunter? I think rogues can spec into getting a second vanish, but thats the only one i can think of...in fact when was the last time you were in an arena that lasted more than 2 minutes after the fight actually started, ie the first shot fired?
To me this brings up an argument of skill. No matter how skilled, and geared most classes are, they are unable to do ANYTHING to prevent a paladin from hitting that button and healing to full.
from the paladins perspective...how much skill does it take to hit bubble? at this point im reasonably sure every paladin has key bound their entire right side of the keyboard to bubble, so they can just bash their face down in case of emergency.
Seriously though, why are you guys so opposed to being brought on level with the other classes so you dont need bubble? if you could win 50/50 against dks and warriors without using bubble, would you be happy? or would you just complain that if you had your bubble you could of won the other 50?
Post by
393224
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
84760
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Deepthought
Vanish. Invincible (now that it's not bugged), you can run,
It doesn't make you invincible, it means that for one half-second, stealth is guaranteed not to break (apart from you clicking it off).
New! (10/7): Vanish: For the first half second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by
taking damage
or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability.
Post by
chase123
Just remove Divine Shield and Forbearance from the game and lower the CD on Divine Protection to 2 min.
Problem Solved.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
spcmack
Dreyden Oct 9th 2009 6:18PM
I loved arena'ing with my protadin. 39k health, and the vast majority of my lifespan is spent under 20% taking 30% less damage and then, suprise! they finally "kill" me and I'm shot right back up to 15k, which is slightly over 20% of my health.
Alas, now I will die mildly quicker than before. :
oh palis, how i hate you.
Post by
Squishalot
Interesting reading the replies. Thanks for the clarification about Vanish - it's been toyed with a couple of times in the last week, and I haven't kept up to date.
Seriously though, I'm not sure what your beef is. If you're fighting a Ret pally, and he bubbles and heals, he's going to be OOM when he comes out, and fresh meat for the picking. If you're fighting a Prot-Healing pally, and he bubbles and heals, then you'll be able to knock him down again fairly easily anyway, because Prot-healers have been nerfed.
And, as I mentioned, if you're fighting a Prot PvE pally, then you've got a lot more to worry about from their Ardent Defender ability, than from their Bubble.
But anyway, there's no point qq'ing over it. Bubble is a mechanic to make paladins competitive against other classes. It's essentially a solo mechanic - it provides no significant use to party members, as opposed to some of the more OP forms of crowd control. If you're in arena and a paladin bubbles, go focus on someone else until he pops out. If a rogue pops Vanish, you're not going to be sitting around waiting for him to unstealth. If they gave rogues Bubble instead of Vanish, I wouldn't be complaining too much, since they won't get Sap, free extra combo points, 6 seconds of extra damage, and a 50% increased Ambush crit. They bubble and bandage, I'll just heal, like everyone else does if we bubble.
I'd be really happy if we were buffed in other ways so that we didn't rely on Bubble in PvP, because that would improve our PvE standing too. At the moment, Ret paladins languish at the bottom of top-end raiding DPS charts, perhaps second only to shadow priests. But people still believe that Rets have overwhelming burst (we don't), do awesomesauce DPS (we don't) and are too OP generally (we're not). A lot of people still think that we can tank, DPS and heal all at once (we can't). How many times do you hear "OMG AVENGERS SHIELD DIVINE STORM OP!", when they're deep Prot and Ret talents respectively? Yet people keep telling stories about OP pallies who can Holy Shock, Avenging Shield and lolretstorm someone, all at once.
Lack of crowd control, lack of ranged abilities, lack of burst now, what do you want to make the Paladin's unique factor? No matter what you do, paladins will always be QQ'd about because of their history. Just like every hunter is a huntard, every Ret paladin is a Retardin, especially since the flood of paladins in Wrath brought every FOTM noob to the class.
Post by
Sgtpain
Anyone who has played ret when we actually had burst will tell you we can no longer depend on burst to do ANYTHING in PvP. I used to never use sacred shield and would forget about my Art of War procs alot and be fine. Now, if I want to kill anything and not get totally destroyed, sacred shield must be up and I no longer waste my art of war on exorcism, but must use it on flash of light the second it's up every single time.
Many other classes have blown passed the burst ability of a pally, why would you take their burst, then take away all of their survability? Do you want pallies to be easy pickins? We can't use LoH in arena, so no, you don't have to kill us twice. Sure, there are people that arena as prot, but come on, that's ALL survability and no burst at all.
Post by
Squishalot
Sure, there are people that arena as prot, but come on, that's ALL survability and no burst at all.
Not true - Prot burst is more significant than Ret burst, but only useable on a 30sec cooldown (i.e. glyphed Avenger's Shield). That should say something about Ret burst now though.
Post by
187275
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sgtpain
Sure, there are people that arena as prot, but come on, that's ALL survability and no burst at all.
Not true - Prot burst is more significant than Ret burst, but only useable on a 30sec cooldown (i.e. glyphed Avenger's Shield). That should say something about Ret burst now though.
So you're idea of "burst" is one attack, on a 30 second CD, and by the time it comes back off CD after a few rorations, you're likely too low on mana to even use it? Sorry, I REALLY disagree.
In arena, don't count on heals as prot. No one in their right mind is going to try and zerg the prot in the group when there is a more squishy target, so spiritual attunement isn't going to get you mana in most cases either.
Post by
Squishalot
Sure, there are people that arena as prot, but come on, that's ALL survability and no burst at all.
Not true - Prot burst is more significant than Ret burst, but only useable on a 30sec cooldown (i.e. glyphed Avenger's Shield). That should say something about Ret burst now though.
So you're idea of "burst" is one attack, on a 30 second CD, and by the time it comes back off CD after a few rorations, you're likely too low on mana to even use it? Sorry, I REALLY disagree.
In arena, don't count on heals as prot. No one in their right mind is going to try and zerg the prot in the group when there is a more squishy target, so spiritual attunement isn't going to get you mana in most cases either.
*sigh* you've missed the point. A combination of Shield of Righteousness (which does more damage than Crusader Strike, when you're BV capped), Hammer of the Righteous (which does more damage Divine Storm), and Avenger's Shield (which does more damage than Judgement or Exorcism) will give you significantly more short-term damage when you need it.
There's plenty of mana there to last you a short-term arena fight, providing you do smart things like glyph for Shield of Righteousness. Divine Plea will keep you topped up, providing you don't spam Consecration as part of your 'rotation', when your opponent is kiting you across the map.
Post by
142942
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
spcmack
Sorry, i suck, been a while and i havent stumbled back to this thread to respond. The issue isnt with running into ONE pali, in a balanced 3v3 arena. The problem is with running into 2 or 3 palis in a 3v3. Everyone always points out how pvp isnt balanced around 1v1, which is why paladins are generally given the go ahead to be grossly op in 1v1 scenarios against most classes, but it suddenly becomes a totally different dynamic when the 3 palis attempt to take on your team 1v1 1v1 and 1v1. sure, you can attempt to burst one of the 3, while they are each focused on their own target, and while not using excessive burst, still doing significant damage, and making it difficult to heal 3 guys at once, but even if you focus 1 of them with your three, he can just bubble. at that point you can either change focus to another pali, which is pointless really, or you can stand there with your hands in your pockets until the bubble breaks, and you can continue the process of beating down the pali all over again.
Dont get me wrong, several team dynamics outright destroy trip palis. priest warlock mage, would eat them like butter. Unfortunately...i do not have priest lock or mage in the 80 bracket...i have a hunter...useless, a dk...slightly more useful...and a rogue...utterly boned...
Again, the whole argument here has nothing to do with me wanting palis to get a giant nerf hammer, and make them unplayable. i have one myself that i have been leveling. I would just like the mechanic to be fixed. Bubble is there because allegedly palis are too easy to kill. Fine. I would just rather see palis become more of a mirror opposite of dks. bubble free...raise their damage, and their survivablity to on par with dks, and almost on par with warriors...since they can heal...and eliminate bubble...
that or give the other classes more powerful defensive abilities...what would all of the casters say about making the dks anti magic zone not break after taking spell damage, and instead give a flat duration of immunity while in the zone? lol...
Post by
468487
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378029
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