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My problem with haste...

Post by Confuzed

ok. I'm trying to use logic here, but I'm not a very logical person. Anyway, most sites say the value of a haste point to a crit point is very close (almost negligable) yet.....haste doesn't give us Shadow priests alot of good use. VT and MB are already super quick with long cd's. So i mean 15% haste is pretty stupid in my opinion. The only other spell it affects is Mind Flay. Now, Mind Flay does get a good benefit from it, however it's only about a total of 30% roughly of our damage.....i STILL don't find it as effective as crit which is effective on ALL spells, and not just effective on one spell. And I was basing my gear on the values based on these so called "experts" but have been switching to as much crit gear as possible, and my DPS has increased phenomenally. Any thoughts? Is there something I'm overlooking? Perhaps all of the stat values I've seen are pre 3.1 but i checked after 3.1 and they were even closer. So....idk

Post by Nitefoxxy

yeah ive never been a fan of haste. i think as far as shadow is concerned you need just enough haste to fit to MF's between MB CD's. At least acording to "experts".

ive been playing for a loooong time and imho, crit is superior to haste. who doesnt like seeing alot of criticals no matter what dps class you are playing. i like crit on every class ive played.

Post by Sinespe

It makes your spells go faster. No, it doesn't "Just affect Mind Flay". Your GCDs get lower, your 1.5-second casts get lower.

Look at it like this: With enough haste, you will reduce your cast time to the point where you are able to cast an extra spell between Vampiric Touch re-casts. Let's look at a shadow priest's opening sequence, assuming no latency.

0.00.0 -- Cast Vampiric Touch
0.01.5 -- Cast Devouring Plague
0.03.0 -- Cast Mind Flay
0.06.0 -- Cast Shadow Word: Pain (Five stacks of Shadow Weaving)
0.07.5 -- Cast Mind Blast
0.09.0 -- Cast Mind Flay
0.12.0 -- Cast ... Shadow word death? VE? Need a GCD filler.
0.13.5 -- Recast VT
0.15.0 -- VT ticks for its last, gets reapplied

There is a problem in this opening rotation. Although it is the most efficient way of getting five stacks of Shadow Weaving, it results in 0.12.0 -- a GCD filler because you've got nothing else to do.

To fit these first 13.5 seconds into 12 seconds requires 410 haste. In doing so, though, you get to cast a full extra Mind Flay where previously you had to cast a SW: D. Given that Mind Flay does roughly the same damage per tick as SW: D does for its whole cast, this results in an increase of roughly 450 DPS over the 13.5 seconds.

Haste speeds up everything. It allows you to get in more actual damage dealing spells between the periods where all you're doing is using a GCD to refresh a DoT.

Post by 117913

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Paolo

Post by Sinespe

Val to the rescue with real numbers, something we can actually sink our teeth into.

You've shown the value of haste vs. no haste, but not the comparative value of haste vs. crit. Given the same SP value that you've assumed for your haste calculation, what would the dps increase be with 410 points of crit and zero haste?

Pencils out, and....GO!

Slightly tricky. I was factoring in a crit average of about 20% when I made my numbers claim, heh. However, I will do a Haste v. Crit comparison a bit later.

Post by 359449

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Confuzed

ok, I loved the post and I think it'll help alot. But first, who among us doesn't have latency on a high population realm in Ulduar? and thirdly, I don't think haste affects your GCD's anymore? And even if it did, you'd never be able to fight more MF in because the haste would decrease your GBC making MB available even sooner. I do appreciate the work you did though and I'd love to see haste vs. crit. I can understand some haste value, but the "experts" say it's damn near equal to crit value.

Post by Confuzed

fit in* not fight, sorry

Post by Sinespe

I don't think haste affects your GCD's anymore? And even if it did, you'd never be able to fight more MF in because the haste would decrease your GBC making MB available even sooner

You're confusing GCD with Cooldown.

GCD = 1.5 seconds that activates whenever you cast a spell. All your other spells are greyed out for 1.5 seconds and become active again after this time. This is affected by haste, so that instant spells and 1.5-second cast spells aren't adversely affected by haste.

Cooldown = A spell's personal cooldown. On Mind Blast, fully talented, that's 5.5 seconds. Spell cooldowns don't get lowered by haste.

Post by Confuzed

hmmmmm i just don't see that making that much of a difference compared to crit?

Post by Ethix

Just to let you know. What Val said is completely right, but if you want to confirm for yourself with your gear how haste and crit scale with each-- maxdps.com (rough estimate) and Rawr.exe (precise) will show you.

http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr

does work for you. how nice...

Post by Confuzed

Post by Ethix

Theory and practice are something that are often hard to figure out for ones self. I can give you a personal example that may help you out.

I used to play a mage back in BC and in early wotlk. At the end of t5 and most of t6, haste started to appear on a lot of my items. I did not want to spend the dkp on them, because like you, I didn't believe it would be more effective than crit. Another mage who I used to normally beat out on the dps meters, started to pass me up because I took the crit items over the haste. He valued haste over crit. I gemmed for spell power and crit, and he gemmed for spell power and haste. We both had nearly identical item level.

Obviously, I had pretty much no haste, and he had about 11% haste. I could never beat him, and it was frustrating since my rotations were perfect and I considered myself to play my mage to the best a mage could be played. I started to pick up haste items as we finishing out BT. Once our haste levels were even, I started to regularly beat him on the meters.

Take it with a grain of salt.

Also, clearly do not value haste items over crit items if the crit item is a higher item level. A priest in my guild over values haste and tried to tell me how the t8.5 helm was worse than the t7.5 helm because it was crit instead of haste.

Post by Sinespe

ok, i think we veered off course. I know all of the theory and math and all of that. I understand it. But in theory and in practice are two different things. In practice, I find crit way more effective than haste. I do sport some haste (about 10-12%), but as I've been giving up alot of haste for crit, I find it to be more effective than the "experts say" I'd give up 5% haste for 3% crit easily.

If your DPS is going up, it could be that you're also picking up more spellpower on the items you're switching around.

EDIT: Also, be very careful about using percentages in this discussion. It takes more crit rating for 1% of crit than it takes haste rating for 1% of haste. The Simcraft calculations are based off the value of rating, not the value of percentage.

(137.73 Crit rating = 3% Crit. 137.73 Haste rating = 4.2% haste.)

In other words, yes, percentage-wise Crit is more valuable than haste, but because it takes more crit rating for 1% of crit than it does for Haste Rating / Haste percentage, Haste catches up a bit.

Post by Confuzed

ah thank you for the last post Val. I didn't think of it that way. And thank you Ethix for your story and participation in this thread. I still think I'm gonna start stacking crit while keeping a bare minimum of haste. And actually my spell power had only gone up a negligable amount when i started switching from haste to crit. I'll post again in a couple weeks when i get my crit gear up and running.

My problem with haste...

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