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If There is No God... (debate)
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Post by
Malgayne
It comes down to the 'self'- what you believe is right and moral. If you have a family then you will teach your 'morals' to them and base right and wrong on how they live. Abusing a child, for instance, would be 'bad' because it is not good for the child- also not good for the parent.
If governments collapse then we do indeed go back to laws governing ourselves and those around us. Since people have created the governments of the world and thus the laws of the world there is not reason that groups of people would not institute rules, laws or morals to live by to allow the growth and expansion of their people. In some forms these would result in 'laws' or morals that condone the killing of people from outside the group.
Take vengeance and the film Mad Max as an example of self based laws and morals. A man who is pushed from an outside group and has his family harmed KNOWS that what was done to him is wrong and thus creates his moral code to eliminate the guilty.
Yeah- I know, I used a film as an example.
I'll think about this some more and add to it.
But ahead and pick me apart MyTie.
To catch you up, the argument as it currently stands:
People come up with their own moral codes, and they decide for themselves what they feel is right and what they feel is wrong. But if you pre-suppose that there is no God, where does the idea of "right and wrong" even come from? Why is it "bad" that someone hurts my family? For that matter, why would it be "bad" for someone to hurt me? Or kill me? Or set off an atomic bomb and destroy the entire Earth, for that matter?
If there's no God, and it's just animals fighting, then who cares?
Post by
blademeld
Devs can edit posts without the whole "edited x seconds ago by x"?
And mods, and bloggers.
I never truly understood why atheists refuse the morals of Islam, what part do you not like?
Because morals are on a personal basis. I think I had a Islam booklet once, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you forbid eating pork? I don't like that.
Post by
ASHelmy
MORAL RELATIVISM (PLEASE READ)
In philosophy moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect objective and/or universal moral truths, but instead make claims relative to social, cultural, historical or personal circumstances. This pertains to ASHelmy's comments.
CULTURAL RELATIVISM
Cultural relativism is the principle that an individual human's beliefs and activities should be understood in terms of his or her own culture. This basically means that if you're talking to a Hindu Monk, you should not respond to him "it is ridiculous for there to be more than three-hundred thousand gods because there is only God." In other words, you cannot say that someone else's religious or cultural beliefs are wrong because you believe in yours, no matter how much to try to explain it it is not an absolute or universal truth.
Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that not everyone on this Earth has the same belief system that you.
If i believe in my religion, and believe in everything it days, and it says that other religions are wrong, I logically will say that other religions are wrong, no?
Post by
Malgayne
If i believe in my religion, and believe in everything it days, and it says that other religions are wrong, I logically will say that other religions are wrong, no?
This sounds very familiar...
Well, they can't all be right, they disagree with one another. If you don't actually know what the truth is, listing a bunch of theories that disagree with me (any one of which could be right or wrong) doesn't have any effect on my argument. It's just saying "people disagree with you". I think—and here I get very politically incorrect—that those people are wrong.
I don't think those people are foolish, and I don't think they're bad people. I just disagree with them.
Post by
Deepthought
If i believe in my religion, and believe in everything it days, and it says that other religions are wrong, I logically will say that other religions are wrong, no?
But they will argue with you and say different, because they follow the same logic system with a different religion. And as part of your religion is that other religions (I.E. theirs) are wrong, they will argue with you over this point.
Post by
ASHelmy
Devs can edit posts without the whole "edited x seconds ago by x"?
And mods, and bloggers.
I never truly understood why atheists refuse the morals of Islam, what part do you not like?
Because morals are on a personal basis. I think I had a Islam booklet once, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you forbid eating pork? I don't like that.
Yes, but think with me here, if all the other things that Islam says is correct, the it would be worth giving up eating one kind of food for. You can judge all Islam by this one rule, I don't like that fact that I can't eat pork.
Post by
ASHelmy
If i believe in my religion, and believe in everything it days, and it says that other religions are wrong, I logically will say that other religions are wrong, no?
But they will argue with you and say different, because they follow the same logic system with a different religion. And as part of your religion is that other religions (I.E. theirs) are wrong, they will argue with you over this point.
So we get past that and try to provide each other with logical proof.
Post by
Deepthought
So we get past that and try to provide each other with logical proof.
Except both religions will rely on the idea that the others' "proof" is either false or not "proof" at all.
So it reverts to a slanging match.
Post by
blademeld
Yes, but think with me here, if all the other things that Islam says is correct, the it would be worth giving up eating one kind of food for. You can judge all Islam by this one rule, I don't like that fact that I can't eat pork.
I think Islam also allows polygamy on the basis that the husband provides equal love and care.
I don't like that either.
Post by
Malgayne
So we get past that and try to provide each other with logical proof.
Except both religions will rely on the idea that the others' "proof" is either false or not "proof" at all.
So it reverts to a slanging match.
This belief irks me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think badly of you because of it of course—but it bothers me to hear people say that debating religion is pointless.
Let me ask this—if I could somehow or other come to you with compelling, logical proof that there WAS a God, and that he was in fact the God described in the Christian Bible—would you get down on your knees and convert to Christianity right now?
And if the answer is no, why not?
Post by
Malgayne
I think Islam also allows polygamy on the basis that the husband provides equal love and care.
I don't like that either.
This gets back to the original debate. Islam says certain things are morally right. You believe some of those same things are morally wrong. How do you decide which is correct?
When you're presented with information that runs counter to your existing moral code, how do you know when it is appropriate to adapt your moral code to the new information, and when the new information must be rejected?
Post by
blademeld
And if the answer is no, why not?
Because I'm already a Christian.
Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Deepthought
This belief irks me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think badly of you because of it of course—but it bothers me to hear people say that debating religion is pointless.
Don't get me wrong. Religious debates can be very enlightening.
It's religion vs religion debates I believe to be pointless.
Let me ask this—if I could somehow or other come to you with compelling, logical proof that there WAS a God, and that he was in fact the God described in the Christian Bible—would you get down on your knees and convert to Christianity right now?
Well, yes. I can't think of a single situation where a person would not?
Post by
blademeld
This gets back to the original debate.
I try my best.
Islam says certain things are morally right. You believe some of those same things are morally wrong. How do you decide which is correct?
Because my morals are whatever I choose is right, not necessarily for everyone, but specifically for me. If another person doesn't eat pork or have multiple wives, I'm not going to chide them over it, however, personally, I won't dip into the matter.
When you're presented with information that runs counter to your existing moral code, how do you know when it is appropriate to adapt your moral code to the new information, and when the new information must be rejected?
I've said this earlier in this thread: values change.
You weigh the consequences of your decisions and make the best choice according to the circumstances.
Post by
Malgayne
So your Bible tells you to be intolerant of others? Doesn't it also tell you to love your neighbor
I don't see why respectfully telling someone you disagree with them should be considered intolerant.
Post by
ASHelmy
Yes, but think with me here, if all the other things that Islam says is correct, the it would be worth giving up eating one kind of food for. You can judge all Islam by this one rule, I don't like that fact that I can't eat pork.
I think Islam also allows polygamy on the basis that the husband provides equal love and care.
I don't like that either.
I think a man can get more then one wife if he really has good reasons, like if he helping the other woman and wants to take good care of here, I doubt it's just "he wants more than one wife, so he gets a new one!". And no one does that anymore anyway.
@ deepthought: we are not idiots :D, we would provide real proof :D.
Post by
Malgayne
I've said this earlier in this thread: values change.
You weigh the consequences of your decisions and make the best choice according to the circumstances.
This is dodging the question. All this says is "I choose the best choice." How do you know which choice is best?
Post by
blademeld
If i believe in my religion, and believe in everything it days, and it says that other religions are wrong, I logically will say that other religions are wrong, no?
So your Bible tells you to be intolerant of others? Doesn't it also tell you to love your neighbor?
There's also the common saying about loving the man and hating the sin, you don't have to love what a person does in order to love that person. I'm sure you love your parents but I'm certain that you don't love the fact that they have to take a dump every day to get rid of biological wastes.
I don't know anyone that loves the fact another person takes a dump.
Post by
ASHelmy
If i believe in my religion, and believe in everything it days, and it says that other religions are wrong, I logically will say that other religions are wrong, no?
So your Bible tells you to be intolerant of others? Doesn't it also tell you to love your neighbor?
I don't do that (I did it once, and I regret it), and my bible tells me nothing, I am Muslim :D.
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