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Enhancement Shaman & DWS

Post by 361861

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by GenXCub

A few things to mention...

The amount of hit rating to get 1% spell hit is not the same as the amount of hit rating to get 1% of melee hit. Yes, +1 hit rating applies to both, but both have different Rating:1% ratios.

32.79 (melee) vs 26.23 (spells) to get 1% of hit, respectively.

When soft caps and hard caps are mentioned, you usually need more information. Passing a soft cap means that any more of that stat (hit in this case) becomes less valuable per point, because one or more abilities that it affects is no longer improved.

8% melee hit (which DWS helps) is the soft cap for special attacks (Stormstrike, lava lash, Windfury).
Any melee hit above this ONLY helps white hits.
17% spell hit (which DWS does not help) is the Hard Cap for spells vs. Raid Bosses.

Let's assume that you have a moonkin or shadow priest in the raid (and no draenei). This means you just need 14% spell hit, or 367 hit rating. This only comes to 11.2% melee hit rating.

To fully cap melee hit (white damage) vs. Raid bosses, you need 27% total melee hit (which DWS does help).

So can you do without DWS, once you're above one or more soft caps? Yes. But it doesn't become totally useless unless you're at 27% melee hit cap, and that's not something that people care to reach. What other talent do you think is worth it?

17% spell hit is usually mentioned as THE hit cap, because after 8% and before 17%, hit rating helps melee white damage AND spells. After 17%, it only affects melee white damage, and at that point, crit, ap, haste, agility are worth more per point, where they weren't prior to the soft cap.

What this all comes down to is this:

Let's assume that you have 367 hit rating to cap your spells when there's a shadow priest or moonkin around. This puts you at 11.2% melee +hit. DWS at this point increases your white damage by about 2% per talent point.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hVbhVZhbxIoxdIhzsRuVo

There's the build without DWS and 4 talent points remaining.

Reverberation is out. The way things work at level 80 on enhancement, you'll never need the extra second on shocks. You're already using up all your global cooldowns on lava lash, maelstrom weapon, stormstrike, and refreshing your lightning shield.

Earthen Power, Frozen Power, Improved Ghost Wolf, Earth's Grasp, Anticipation, Toughness are, for the most part, PvP talents. So where would these points go? Maybe Elemental warding if you favor that over hit, but most DPS classes focus on DPS talents, not survivability talents. Finishing Ancestral Knowledge is kind of a waste, as you'd get about 10 attack power per talent point... another waste. DWS is almost the only place a PvE shaman has for the extra points.

Post by 361861

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Machar

I think Improved Stormstrike is very much a YMMV talent. As previously mentioned, there isn't much that increases your DPS left to get. You could take Elemental Focus for more mana saved that way. The theorycraft on which returns more mana over time would be interesting.

Post by 346822

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Avandare

DWS is almost the only place a PvE shaman has for the extra points.

^ pretty much sums it up Sir.

Post by MegaVolt

Post by wOwCrUsHeR

Your real attackspeed with a 2.6 weapon is not 2.6, because you get alone 45% melee haste by WF totem + Flurry. Throw in the 5% setbonus from t7 and you got 50% melee haste up most of the time even before adding any bonus haste from gear.
Your mainhand is enchanted with windfury, and since WF attacks are instant attacks, the average damage (and thus speed) do matter a lot. I hope you didn't intend to use a fast weapon in the mainhand.
Your offhand weapon is enchanted with flametongue, so a slow offhand is better there because the effect scales with weapon speed.
Your instant attacks Stormstrike and Lava Lash are not normalized, so you get the uncut AP bonus from the slowest possible weapons. They also build Maelstrom Weapon stacks, and the chance to build a MW stack per hit depends on the weapon speed. The slower the weapon, the higher the chance to build up a stack.

All this and probably more are the reasons why fast(er) weapons are crap no matter what DPS and stats they have.

Since Imp. SS was mentioned, i think it's a priceless talent in some situations, because it does regen mana on Vezax and allows to throw a LOT more aoe totems etc. out on bosses like Freya.
Also if you for example happen to die & combatrez right after using SR, you might have to spend up to 1-2 minutes without any mana. Elemental Focus doesn't really help with any of the above, while ISS seems to solve any mana issues you might ever have particulary in raids where not every buff is available.

Post by GenXCub

Since the initial question has been answered I also have a DW related one which doesn't really deserve another topic:
For DW it is generally recommended to use a slow (2.6) weapon since WF has an internal 3 second cooldown. What I don't really get is: Why not use a 1.5 weapon?
With a 3s cooldown the 2.6 weapon will proc, then swing once and not proc for sure because of the cooldown (+2.6s) and then swing again and be able to proc at +5.2s.
When using a 1.5 weapon it will swing, proc, not proc for the next swing (+1.5s) and then be able to proc again for the 3rd at +3s - the number of not-proc-swings is the same but the next swing that can proc happens 2.2s earlier.

(with higher haste rating i assume slower weapons then 1.5s are better, just slow enough to keep it above 1.5s with all haste factored in).

Since 2.6 weapons are recommended I assume I don't understand the mechanics completely and made some kind of mistake here. Can anyone please point it out? Thanks in advance.

Here's the quick and dirty. Shaman instant attacks are not normalized. I'll compare to a rogue's normalized Sinister Strike.

Shaman with 2800 AP, using a 2.6 speed mace, 100 DPS, listed damage is 220-300 (average damage 260 divided by weapon speed gets you 100 dps)
Stormstrike's equation looks like this:
Damage = (listed damage + (Attack Power/14 * Weapon Speed))
= 260 + (2800/14 * 2.6)
= 780

Shaman with 2800 AP, using a 1.5 speed mace, 100 DPS, Listed damage is 140-160 (Average damage 150 divided by weapon speed gets you 100 dps)
damage = 150 + (2800/14 * 1.5)
= 450

Here you have 2 equal dps weapons, and one is doing a LOT more damage. Windfury works the same way.

Here's a rogue who has normalized attacks (maces, fists, and swords get a 2.4 weapon speed regardless of actual weapon speed).

Damage = Listed Damage + (Attack Power/14 * 2.4)
Using the above 2.6 speed mace and 2800 AP
=260 + (2800/14 * 2.4)
=740

Using the above 1.5 speed mace and 2800 AP
150 + (2800/14 * 2.4)
=630

The difference is much smaller here, and you can spam this attack. With poison procs on the white hits, the damage really evens out on different weapon speeds for rogues. The slower will always hit harder, but not by much.

Post by MegaVolt

Thanks ;) That cleared it up. So basically the 3s internal cooldown mentioned in the shaman guides doesn't really matter, there are tons of other reasons to prefer slow weapons.

For the rogues a fast weapon then should do a LOT more damage, right?
740 per swing every 2.6 is a lot less then 630 per swing every 1.5

Post by wOwCrUsHeR

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t15809-shaman_windfury/

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20765-shaman_enhancement/

Post by 341898

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Post by 337803

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 341898

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Matthales

I would fill out Call of Flame, Improved Stormstrike, Elemental focus (if you really have mana issues), and Dual Wield Specialization (that shouldn't really be an issue) before i would invest more than 2/5 in Ancestral Knowledge

If you're a level 80, you should have more than enough points to stretch. 8 points give me around ~500 AP (increases with buffs/gear upgrades), 5/5 Ancestral Knowledge and 3/3 Mental Dexterity. They go hand in hand, like peas in a pod.

500 AP from your intellect in total, not just from Ancestral Knowledge alone. Raid buffed, each point of Ancestral Knowledge is worth 9-12 ish attack power. It's not a bad talent, in fact most talents are rarely bad, there are just better alternatives and shouldn't be taken before other abilities.

The mana conservation abilities don't need to be taken if you do not need to conserve your mana, you don't need these abilities. However, even without the mana conservation abilities, there aren't enough points to completely max it. You would end up with something along the lines of this. Now, unless you are in a raid group where you don't need the points in Imp. Windfury, I wouldn't allocate any talent points to Ancestral Knowledge for that last 12 AP. They're just better spent elsewhere.

Enhancement Shaman & DWS

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