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10.2.5
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10.2.6
Clicker = Means i can't tank?
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Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
W4lker
So long as you get the job done does it make any difference in being a clicker or a keybinder? Not one iota
That's the point, a clicker won't be able to do as good of a job as one who uses key-bindings. You're right, if a clicker can get the job done, great, but any raid leader will know that key-bindings ensure faster reaction time and better overall performance. You can be the best clicker in the world but no matter how good you are you can't change targets and click taunt at the same time, that is a FACT. Your mouse can't be in two places at once, but you have 10 fingers... make use of them.
You say all you have left is 25 man Malygos, big whoop. Don't try to bring your epeen into this, I'm not even going to tell you what my progression is, because even if I did it wouldn't prove anything. Proof is in the simple fact that relying on your right hand to do EVERYTHING is extremely limiting. Again I don't care how good you are, I don't care what your progression is, I don't care what you've tanked while clicking. No matter what you've accomplished as a clicker there's one thing you have NEVER done. You've never turned your character any number of degrees at a rate faster than holding A or D while using any given ability, targeted anything and immediately performed the necessary skill for that circumstance, or any number of things that require 2 hands. When it comes down to tanking or anything for that matter binding keys WILL make thing easier and more efficient.
You can compare yourself to however many people you want, but in reality you will never know how good key-binding is because you can't compare the clicking you to the binding you. I dare you to give it 2 weeks, by then you should at least be getting the feel for it, and I bet you'll be performing at a much higher level.
Learn to bind, and end this silly debate. The bottom line is this: Bindings make for more efficient game play. If you can accomplish something as a clicker than you can surpass that with bindings.
By the way, good luck tanking drakes in Sartharion.
Post by
Lightrain
You can be the best clicker in the world but no matter how good you are you can't change targets and click taunt at the same time, that is a FACT. Your mouse can't be in two places at once, but you have 10 fingers... make use of them.
4 of which can access number keys/keybinds at will(3 if you are moving backwards/strafing and don't have a mouse button bound to do the same job).
Post by
W4lker
You can be the best clicker in the world but no matter how good you are you can't change targets and click taunt at the same time, that is a FACT. Your mouse can't be in two places at once, but you have 10 fingers... make use of them.
4 of which can access number keys/keybinds at will(3 if you are moving backwards/strafing and don't have a mouse button bound to do the same job).
The fact that you have 10 fingers isn't my point. My point is you have other resources. Since you only need ONE finger to push a button, chances are out of 4 (3) fingers... you're gonna be able to push it, but I like how out of my whole post the only thing you could argue about was the number of fingers that are available.
One finger makes the difference in the time it takes to move your mouse to your action bar and being able to perform actions SIMULTANEOUSLY. There's no amount of speed in the world that can make one thing in two places, but you already have two hands... use them.
Post by
Lightrain
LoL! I was just being funny and pointing out the obvious. =)
That and using 10 fingers to push buttons on your keyboard would be slower than clicking.... Hehe.
On the other side of things. I doubt there is one person in all of wow that doesn't at least use 1 keybind. I'm pretty sure that every single wow player will use at least 2-4 keybinds minimum. A feral druid can be perfectly successful tanking with 4 keybinds(mangle, maul, lacerate, and growl. With the possible addition of feral charge.), and clicking the rest of the buttons.
However, if you want to be successful in PvP, you will want to bind a few more buttons.
Post by
W4lker
Yeah I agree, I'm not sure if this post is talking about additional keybinds to 1-5 or if it's talking about all keybinds. And sorry if I came across as being hostile, I must not have picked up on your humor :p
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Slimda
So.... on to more facts.
You have 10 fingers. 5 of them are on your mouse. This leaves 5 for keybinds. At best your thumb is only used to hit the space bar, and chances are this still the jump button (super useful jumoing is). That leaves 4 fingers. Your middle finger is controling forward/backward motion and isnt really available for keybindings either. Down to 3 now.
your ring finger has maybe 3 buttons within easy reach. Not alot you can do with that. So that mostly leaves your index and pinky to do all the work. Chances are the pinky will be pressing the alt/ctrl/shift buttons so most of the keybinding work is being done by the index finger.
Thats pretty much 1 finger doing 90% of the work.
Guess what a clicker has? thats right 1 finger doing 90% of the work.
I have to disagree. Yay! :-)
10 fingers is correct, yes. Five on each hand, correct again.
I don't know how regular it is, but my mouse has two aditional buttons. I also move forward and turn around with my mouse. I also use Auto-run, or even W sometimes. Mostly I use autorun and the mouse. So, right hand has two keybinds and movement.
Left hand has now five fingers. The pinky deals with barkskin(<-key) and the Shift-key. My ring-finger deals with A (turning/strafing left), Q (Enrage/Rip), 1 (Mangle) and Auto-run (|-key). My middle-finger (FU!) deals with backwards and forward movement (which my right hand or ring-finger usually does), 2 (lacerate/shred/ravage), 3 (Maul/Rake/Pounce) and E (Demoralizing Roar/Ferocious Bite). My index-finger deals with the remaining buttons, R (Ferocious Regeneration/Savage Roar), 4 (Swipe/Tiger's Fury) and 5 (taunt/stealth). I need to move my hand to reach 6, 7 and 8, but that's fairly easy.
I've been a touch typist since 2nd grade in school, and I know the keyboard and it's bindings by heart.
And when I use my pinky for Shift-keys, I still use my three other main fingers for the regular buttons. But the index does "most" of the work, namely keys 4-8 and R. But I don't use those far away too often because, frankly, they're far away and aren't subjected to frequent use.
But, 'tis the same with sexual preferences and everything else about humans.
Whatever floats your boat
.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kaitain
Assume you have a selection of your moves keybound to the E R F G buttons. Assuming your hands rest in a wasd (or similar) postion that places those 4 keys within easy reach of your index finger. As a fight goes on you suddenly need to press E and G at the same time (or close enough to the same time). Obvioulsy your finger cant be in 2 places at the same time, so something is gona get pressed first. Not simultanous. There is a delay, however small, between the 2 actions.
You put your 4 core abilities onto
Q
and
E
. You design your config intelligently so you don't ever have to press E and G at the same time.
Consider another scenario. You use your mouse to change what way you are facing, but still rely on the W S buttons for forward/backward movement. You have abilities bound to the 2 & 3 keys. Say a patrol wanders close or one of those annoying Naxx Shades appears mid-group. You need to get yourself over there asap but some of the abilities you need to handle the situation are bound to 2 or 3. This means you need to stop moving to activate them. Nothing simultanous there.
the reason keybinders use 1-4 is because you can easily press them without taking your middle finger off W.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Moving and doing stuff with the mouse :
* if i have my target already : i can simply click the two buttons and move whatever way, turning with the mouse, to get wherever i need to while i can use whatever abilities needed on the keyboard.
* if i don't have the target yet : i click the autorun button on my mouse and have to target while possibly turning. If i'm running away, it means i don't have to be at 0.01s reaction time and can just start running to the right direction, rotate camera, select, and do whatever needs to be done. If i'm running towards, then it's in the middle of the screen and i can select more or less while turning and moving (at maybe the cost of a little zigzag). That or use tab depending on the amounts of mob and position of the one you want to get. Stopping auto-run with the mouse is easy too.
Or i can use a forward or strafe keybind and still do whatever with my mouse and have fingers free for the other abilities to use.
So yes, you can do all that with the mouse.
The only argument that could be brought forward based upon this logic is that it will be faster to have the follow up action done on the keyboard (your left hand wasn't doing anything else except maybe use tab or forward or strafe, so it's entirely ready to press taunt, charge or whatever damage/healing/... spell you were planning on doing) than to add another action to the mouse, though not necessarily by much.
Still, about the selecting a target argument, I think there's hardly any doubt to be had that selecting something (tab or clicking) and then using another finger to fire whatever spell is going to be faster than clicking to target and then clicking another ability.
Is that difference meaningfull ? Not necessarily in PvE. (man, you're starting to make me feel like GC writing to the masses, having to put that sort of disclaimer in all my posts in this discussion :) )
Post by
Kaitain
You design your config intelligently
bingo.
what do you think a clicker does?
How can you use that argument? Seriously, how? You imply the keybinder would have to not have an intelligently designed config for your arguments to be valid.
I quoted your 2 examples about keybinding because they are nonsense. They are bad examples, which you should be able to see now.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Again, the whole discussion has shifted to : "would a good keybinder be more efficient than a good clicker" (or at least that is the argument that Kaitain and I have been making since a few pages). I have defined what i meant by better in previous posts already, ie from equal reaction time (ie a few ms difference at most) in low stress environments to noticeably faster in high stress encironments.
(keeping in mind that it probably doesn't matter noticeably in PvE anyway)
It might not be the question you want to address (since it seems you want to stay on the initial topic which as i said i personally find quite limited in interest and already answered satisfactorily anyway), but continuing to answer and criticizing our comments based on that initial topic won't get us anywhere since we are talking about two different things.
Say you don't care and don't want to enter in that debate or want scientifical proofs or whatever, but at the moment you are using arguments we don't care at all about (because they are obvious truths so there's no point in reminding us of them) to answer beside the points we (me and kaitain at least) are making.
(or don't quote us when replying to someone else who still hasn't moved on from the clicker = bad oversimplification)
Post by
Kaitain
That went right over your head it seems. Let me try to explain it out to you.
no, it went over your head.
You said you cannot press 2 keys at once with keybinds, and to prove it you gave an example which would never happen. It would only happen if your keybind config was really stupid. It's completely irrelevant. It's nonsense.
You then said you cannot press 2 or 3 and move with W at the same time. Laughable nonsense. Middle finger stays on W, ring finger moves up to 2, or index to 3. Did you even try to move your hand to try this before you wrote yet another post of patronising rubbish?
Those were my 2 points on this page, and you can't dig your way out of it.
Post by
297395
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Slimda
Clicking might be better for people not apt in terms of gaming. Your common household wife doesn't play FPS-games, and has thus not learnt where keys are by definition. She does not use hotkeys on the keyboard to do stuff in Windows, in the browser, or anyplace else.
Every person I know that doesn't feel confident about computer-, and specifically keyboard-use, use the mouse for almost everything. Just like Parrazell here, who works all day long with AutoCAD, using the mouse as the primary tool. Of course he will continue using the mouse where it seems fit.
Now please, stop being so agressive about something as trivial as this. If the player sucks, he sucks. If he's awesome, he's awesome. Regardless of playstyle.
*edit*
Oh, I'm not saying Parrazell is a common household wife... :P
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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