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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
Adamsm
Lastly, I hardly call Sylvanas' plans "mad". Wanting to safeguard her people and drive the Alliance out of Forsaken territory seems perfectly legit to me.....Yeah and turning every single human into a living corpse, that just scream sane..../shake head
As for the rest, I'm done. Have a nice day 4dehorde, I'm tired of smashing my head against a brick wall.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Lor'themar is fed up with Garrosh. I don't see him showing any anger towards Vol'jin, Baine, or even Sylvanas. And after Jaina's purge of Dalaran (off topic: I want to see her head on a pike for that), instead of rejoining the Alliance we see Lor'themar act more like he wants to reform the Horde instead, meaning get rid of Garrosh.
The funny thing is that you have included heroes who are canonically not sociopaths with those who are, as though they were of the same cloth. Of course he wouldn't show aggression towards Vol'jin or Baine. They are his allies against Garrosh, and haven't been throwing chemical weapons around like they were toys. But that said, he was negotiating with Varian to rejoin the Alliance because his joining with the Horde was a matter of expediency. And since it was costing him far more to stay with the Horde than he was willing to pay, he was considering leaving. Then Jaina's blunder incited the blood elves against the Alliance, so that route was cut off for the time being.
That is not a quote from Blizzard saying Taurajo was not a massacre, it is a quote from Blizzard saying that Baine thinks there was no massacre. As all evidence shows, he is misinformed. Taurajo was a bloody massacre the Alliance committed out of hatred and bloodlust.
If he was misinformed, then Baine is quite possibly the worst leader in all the Horde. Him not knowing or considering the attack which occurred on his doorstep as something incorrect is not only stupid, it's downright negligent.
Post by
Snake387
Oh, and, by the way, I've just did the Southern Barrens questline and guess what? It turns out that this innocent little hunting club was making weapons for the Horde infantry. Now doesn't that just have 'legitimate target' written all over it?
Post by
Lordplatypus
And Hitlers objective was to save Germany.
First off A: Hitler was a raving psychopath that decided the soviets were the master race when they won. essentially, he isn't a racists, he's one of those crazy eugenics types. Secondly, Hitler's objective was to make Germany a world power by taking sovereign land from other nations. *Cough* Horde *Cough*.
Garithos was rightly annoyed at the dwarves basically getting drunk and lost in the middle of a war (Tell me, would you be frustrated?) yet he pulls his troops over to save them.
And remember, the Elves were jackasses in general before, would you trust them after all the idiot crap they've done? (Ignoring the line of Arathor, Blaming the alliance for their forests, not mentioning the demons part until the demons were already there, Et Cetra.
Post by
morginar
First off A: Hitler was a raving psychopath that decided the soviets were the master race when they won. essentially, he isn't a racists, he's one of those crazy eugenics types. Secondly, Hitler's objective was to make Germany a world power by taking sovereign land from other nations. *Cough* Horde *Cough*.Garithos was a raving psychopath that decided the humans were the master race. Essentially, he isn't just a racist, he's one of those crazy eugenics types.
Garithos' objective was to make humanity a world power by taking lives from the other "lesser" races.
Garithos was rightly annoyed at the dwarves basically getting drunk and lost in the middle of a war (Tell me, would you be frustrated?) yet he pulls his troops over to save them.
And Garithos made some Dwarves leave becouse of the racism. That is more than just mad, and his reputation must have spread a bit, or the Dwarves have worked with him before.
Not to mention that Lordaeron have been terraformed and for a foreener from Ironforge, it would be more than difficult to find their way.
And remember, the Elves were jackasses in general before, would you trust them after all the idiot crap they've done? (Ignoring the line of Arathor, Blaming the alliance for their forests, not mentioning the demons part until the demons were already there, Et Cetra.
What crap? I need some citation and elaboration.
Post by
Atik
First off A: Hitler was a raving psychopath that decided the soviets were the master race when they won.
*Aryans
Post by
Monday
First off A: Hitler was a raving psychopath that decided the soviets were the master race when they won.
*Aryans
I was just about to do that. Hitler
hated
communists.
edit:
Yes you are. I provided citation and proved my point, but you are trying to avoid it by claiming I did not provide citation when I did. Sorry but that is rather childish.
Then stop dodging and show me your citation. I dare you.
edit 2:
Second of all Gilneas was not Alliance during the invasion and many Gilneans survived the invasion and fled to Darnassus.
Semantics. They joined the Alliance right after and were receiving Alliance aid during the Forsaken aggression of Gilneas, therefore they were Alliance protectorates and within the Alliance's legitimate military interests.
And the Forsaken were justified in wiping out Alliance forces in Silverpine, Western Plaguelands, and Hillsbrad because the Alliance was invading Lordaeron, over and over.
Why are they justified in fighting the Alliance in Hillsbrad and Western Plaguelands? Hillsbrad was still Alliance territory and Plaguelands was under the watch of the Argent Dawn, which is a nonpartisan organization. These qualifies both acts of the Forsaken as aggression and unprovoked invasion.
Post by
morginar
Yes you are. I provided citation and proved my point, but you are trying to avoid it by claiming I did not provide citation when I did. Sorry but that is rather childish.
Then stop dodging and show me your citation. I dare you.
I dubble dare you.
And the Forsaken were justified in wiping out Alliance forces in Silverpine, Western Plaguelands, and Hillsbrad because the Alliance was invading Lordaeron, over and over.
Why are they justified in fighting the Alliance in Hillsbrad and Western Plaguelands? Hillsbrad was still Alliance territory and Plaguelands was under the watch of the Argent Dawn, which is a nonpartisan organization. These qualifies both acts of the Forsaken as aggression and unprovoked invasion.
Tecnicaly Androhal was scourge...
And don't start with bias on that victory, if alliance had won it would be like Stalingrad.
And in the end of the expanision all will be whitewashed with it was Garry that planed evry aggression horde has done in cata-mop.
Post by
Rankkor
So... 4 people died in a military attack. That's terrible.
now hold on a second there bro'
You don't seriously believe only FOUR people died in taurajo right? In-game events are not set to scale. Just because we see 4 corpses doesn't mean that was the extent of the dead.
After all, Goldshire is just 1 inn, 1 blacksmith, and 1 house, along with 20 NPCs, yet in lore that's a major village with over 5000 people.
Same goes for Taurajo which was a significantly large village that hosted several innocent non-combatants.
While I am willing to concede that it was a justified military target, it was still a dishonorable action by the alliance. Say what you will about theramoore, but at least the horde gave the civilians AMPLE time to abandon the premises, all the casualties were exclusively military.
Taurajo on the other hand was attacked at night, while the hunters were away, and they only left a tiny gap open that in the confusion and chaos only a handful of civilians spoted. The rest were just killed on sight by overzealous forces who then proceeded to loot the place.
Furthermore, the alliance high command wanted their soldiers to butcher everyone, and/or take hostages. Children included. That tiny gap was the decision of the commanding officer alone, for which he was chided by his superiors, showing that his decicion was not a concensus on the alliance. So........ they are totally fine with killing civilians.
Let that sink for a moment. And yes, I know that under garrosh's leadership, the horde has done the same, but that's GARROSH's horde exclusively. Every other horde leader (With the exception of Sylvannas who is another can of worms) highly refuses to do such dishonorable tactics.
The alliance? Showed no remorse when they purged the shatterspear tribe, showed no remorse when they sicced a tribe of magnataurs on a horde village for no reason at all, showed no remorse when they placed an entire ethnic minority in jail, woman and children included, and showed extreme disapproval when one general allowed a handful of civilians to leave alive.
Second of all Gilneas was not Alliance during the invasion and many Gilneans survived the invasion and fled to Darnassus.
Semantics. They joined the Alliance right after and were receiving Alliance aid during the Forsaken aggression of Gilneas, therefore they were Alliance protectorates and within the Alliance's legitimate military interests.
So? the attack on gilneas was still justified, since it represented a vulnerable breach from which the alliance could invade silverpine. In fact...... that's exactly what they did. At the moment of the attack they were still not part of the alliance, and in fact renounced the alliance with quite a bit of scorn. There's also the fact that the worgens have been natural enemies of the forsaken for quite a while. I will admit though that I don't approve what the forsaken did to the civilians once they took gilneas. Ok taking the place was justified, but enslaving the population, and/or turning them into forsaken was out of line.
And the Forsaken were justified in wiping out Alliance forces in Silverpine, Western Plaguelands, and Hillsbrad because the Alliance was invading Lordaeron, over and over.
Why are they justified in fighting the Alliance in Hillsbrad and Western Plaguelands? Hillsbrad was still Alliance territory
hmm hello? the alliance had just tried to invade them, the most natural next step after forcing them out of silverpine would be to secure the borders.
and Plaguelands was under the watch of the Argent Dawn, which is a nonpartisan organization. These qualifies both acts of the Forsaken as aggression and unprovoked invasion
not quite. The Argent Dawn only held claim to hearthglenn. And if they truly laid a claim on the land, then the alliance was just as much in the wrong as the forsaken were. They too should be considered an act of agression and unprovoked invasion. After all Argent Dawn =/= Alliance.
Andorhal was scourge territory, and with their military power drastically decreased, the land was up for grabs for whoever got there first. Argent Dawn got first to Heartglenn so its theirs. Alliance and Horde got to Andorhal at the same time, and each had equal rights to the land, may the best man win.
Post by
Monday
hmm hello? the alliance had just tried to invade them, the most natural next step after forcing them out of silverpine would be to secure the borders.
So why are the Alliance not justified in taking the Alterac Valley, as that lies very close to Alliance borders?
all the casualties were exclusively military.
Source?
The alliance? Showed no remorse when they purged the shatterspear tribe
Wait a moment. If you can lump the whole Alliance in with the Night Elves, then cannot we do the same with the Horde and Forsaken? Therefore the Horde showed no remorse mercilessly enslaving a population and using biological weapons on a civilian population center.
showed no remorse when they placed an entire ethnic minority in jail, woman and children included
If we're talking about the internment camps, you should remember that that "ethnic minority" had just wiped out several Alliance kingdoms and butchered the populations.
Edit: So? the attack on gilneas was still justified
See, this is my main beef with most of the Horde supporters on this site. Every aggression by the Horde is justified because it threatens their military interests. However, if the Alliance make a similar move, they become backstabbing, murdering slavedrivers. It's the most hilarious double standard I've seen in a long time.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Second of all Gilneas was not Alliance during the invasion and many Gilneans survived the invasion and fled to Darnassus.
Semantics. They joined the Alliance right after and were receiving Alliance aid during the Forsaken aggression of Gilneas, therefore they were Alliance protectorates and within the Alliance's legitimate military interests.
So? the attack on gilneas was still justified, since it represented a vulnerable breach from which the alliance could invade silverpine. In fact...... that's exactly what they did. At the moment of the attack they were still not part of the alliance, and in fact renounced the alliance with quite a bit of scorn. There's also the fact that the worgens have been natural enemies of the forsaken for quite a while.
What this actually means is that the Forsaken invaded a sovereign and, more importantly, neutral nation. Ergo, it shows more how much the Forsaken know that they are the enemies of everyone, and that a strategy of best defense is an offense. Normally that would be fine, but when neutral nations are fair game, this raises the question of when exactly they draw the line? Insofar...they haven't.
And on that topic, the worgen were unknown to the Forsaken as being in Gilneas. They were more an infestation, one which the Forsaken like everyone else was unaware of thanks to the wall, and which they were trying to invade even before the wall fell down.
Post by
Rankkor
hmm hello? the alliance had just tried to invade them, the most natural next step after forcing them out of silverpine would be to secure the borders.
So why are the Alliance not justified in taking the Alterac Valley, as that lies very close to Alliance borders?
LOL what alliance borders? Alterac? a traitor kingdom that was destroyed. Dalaran? First became neutral, then it took off, and while its now alliance territory, its nowhere near alterac valley anymore. Stromgarde? Destroyed. What alliance borders? That act was alliance troops invading orc territory just because they wanted to dig some relics.
all the casualties were exclusively military.
Source?
Hmmm dude? did you even read Tides of War? Baine send warning to jaina days before the attack began, and the entire city was evacuated of civilians, only troops were inside of it when the attack began.
The alliance? Showed no remorse when they purged the shatterspear tribe
Wait a moment. If you can lump the whole Alliance in with the Night Elves, then cannot we do the same with the Horde and Forsaken? Therefore the Horde showed no remorse mercilessly enslaving a population and using biological weapons on a civilian population center.
Now you're talking apples and oranges. The Forsaken were acting against the warchief command, as he forbade them to use the blight. As for why didn't he do anything when they disobeyed that command, is because he was both an idiot, and was too busy aggroing the rest of the world.
You KNOW the rest of the horde races are NOTHING like the forsaken. But the night elves show the exact same approach to horde targets than the rest of the alliance.
showed no remorse when they placed an entire ethnic minority in jail, woman and children included
If we're talking about the internment camps, you should remember that that "ethnic minority" had just wiped out several Alliance kingdoms and butchered the populations.
Actually I was talking about every single loyal citizen of Dalaran who just happened to be a blood elf, and got their civil rights suspended, all personal property confiscated, and their freedom revoked just because one crazy woman decided to play Rage-a-holic Bigot.
Edit: So? the attack on gilneas was still justified
See, this is my main beef with most of the Horde supporters on this site. Every aggression by the Horde is justified because it threatens their military interests. However, if the Alliance make a similar move, they become backstabbing, murdering slavedrivers. It's the most hilarious double standard I've seen in a long time.
Not quite. Notice how while I said that the attack was justified, I condemn how they treated the civilians. Same goes for Taurajo, that attack was justified, but the way it was carried out (in the middle of the night, with no warning, when there were only civilians, resuling in tons of non-combatant casualties) was extremely dishonorable and evil.
Also a lot of times when the alliance makes a similar move, its for petty reasons. Attack on alterac valley? Dwarves wanted to dig some relics. Attack on Mulgore? (Remember, Explorer's league used to have an outpost there previous to cataclysm, and they were disturbing the land) more relics. Attack on the tauren village in south barrens? More dwarves wanting to dig more relics. Attack on Honor Stand? Completely unprovoked and while there was a peace treaty in place mind you. Siccing an entire magnataur tribe on an orc outpost? completely unprovoked, the gnomes were just too lazy to deal with the threat on their own.
Now here are some alliance attacks that were justified: Taurajo, Stonard, Andorhal, and that base in ashenvale who's name I don't recall right now. (Splintertree post?)
So I am not displaying any double-standards here. I've said it many times before, neither the alliance nor the horde are the good guys. They both have their share of saints and assholes in it. What boggles my mind however is the double-standard by some alliance fans, in that all of their attacks were perfectly honorable and right, while all the horde attacks were monstrous and evil.
See how that works?
Every single alliance fan has deeply condemned the attack on theramoore. Even though that city was MORE than asking for it. They funneled major alliance troops into the barrens, north AND south, they served as a major invasion point from which they even went as far as durotar (I'd love to see how would alliance fans react if the horde had a major city built near elwynn and the alliance destroys it, would you condemn it too?) sent constantly spies to the horde bases in dustwallow marsh, etc etc.
That city may have been neutral in the past, but in cataclysm it clearly picked a side, and it was through there that the alliance was hitting the horde on THREE different places. So the horde attacks the city, even leaves ample time to let the civilians evacuate, and yet we're absolute monsters.
Go figure.
Post by
Lordplatypus
@Hitler comments
No seriously, Hitler outright decided the Russians were the master race after they beat his "Perfect" Aryan army.
I'm not kidding here, it's just not well known.
Garithos was a raving psychopath that decided the humans were the master race. Essentially, he isn't just a racist, he's one of those crazy eugenics types.
Garithos' objective was to make humanity a world power by taking lives from the other "lesser" races
I don't even know where to start with how wrong that is. First off, Garitho's objective was to save lordaeron and the few remaining living members, as well as retake the capital city.
The closest real-life person that would remind me of Garithos would have to be Charles De Gaulle.
Not to mention that Lordaeron have been terraformed and for a foreener from Ironforge, it would be more than difficult to find their way.
They all managed to wander off from an entire army that they were part of.
So? the attack on gilneas was still justified, since it represented a vulnerable breach from which the alliance could invade silverpine. In fact...... that's exactly what they did. At the moment of the attack they were still not part of the alliance, and in fact renounced the alliance with quite a bit of scorn. There's also the fact that the worgens have been natural enemies of the forsaken for quite a while. I will admit though that I don't approve what the forsaken did to the civilians once they took gilneas. Ok taking the place was justified, but enslaving the population, and/or turning them into forsaken was out of line.
Gilneas was clearly neutral. Even with forsaken mental degradation it'd be blatantly obivous that gilneas was not part of the alliance, with the lack of gilnean troops in any alliance battlefield.
Attacking Gilneas was merely slyvanas wanting more land and undead slaves.
hmm hello? the alliance had just tried to invade them, the most natural next step after forcing them out of silverpine would be to secure the borders.
The same way the soviets secured their borders with their puppet states?
Indeed the entire story of warcraft is the Alliance reacting to the Horde's Wanton agression and trying to reclaim their territory from the invaders aka. the horde.
I'll list off all the vanilla battlegrounds first.
Arathi Basin: Alliance Attempting to reclaim the basin while the horde (Mostly forsaken) try to invade and take over more land
Alterac Valley: Alliance attempting to reclaim their land from the Frostwolves who had decided to take it over during the wars.
Warsong Gulch: Alliance defending their territory from a Horde Invasion. simple as that.
It's a constant war because the horde's serious case of myopia, ignoring the fact that they have no claim to azeroth outside of various plains in the barrens and Quel'thalas. Due to this, they see alliance reclamation as aggression and somehow describe their own invasion of alliance territory as simply taking what they need.
Until this stops, the horde is completely and utterly in the wrong. There is no gray, this is a war between invaders and the invaded.
Post by
Rankkor
@Hitler comments
No seriously, Hitler outright decided the Russians were the master race after they beat his "Perfect" Aryan army.
I'm not kidding here, it's just not well known.
Your knowledge of history is embarrassing.
So? the attack on gilneas was still justified, since it represented a vulnerable breach from which the alliance could invade silverpine. In fact...... that's exactly what they did. At the moment of the attack they were still not part of the alliance, and in fact renounced the alliance with quite a bit of scorn. There's also the fact that the worgens have been natural enemies of the forsaken for quite a while. I will admit though that I don't approve what the forsaken did to the civilians once they took gilneas. Ok taking the place was justified, but enslaving the population, and/or turning them into forsaken was out of line.
Gilneas was clearly neutral. Even with forsaken mental degradation it'd be blatantly obivous that gilneas was not part of the alliance, with the lack of gilnean troops in any alliance battlefield.
Attacking Gilneas was merely slyvanas wanting more land and undead slaves.
You are missing the point: Gilneas represented a vulnerable breach into the defenses of Silverpine, it was a spot from which the alliance could launch a major invasion onto silverpine. Attacking and securing that hole, WAS justified. Now, enslaving and converting the population? yes that was overkill. But securing the location wasn't. As the questchain in silverpine proved, that hole allowed a MAJOR contingency of alliance troops to make it into silverpine almost all the way to Tirisfal Glades.
Let me ask you something, if there was a major gap in the defenses, say....... an earthquake reveals a subterranean tribe of trolls that live just north of elwynn forest, and through their network of tunnels one can easily funnel an army from Burning Steeps all the way to the doorstep of stormwind, and said trolls were friendly to the horde....... would it be wrong for the alliance to secure that land? they are sealing a gap in their defenses, as long as they don't butcher the trolls, or enslave them, it would be completely morally correct.
Indeed the entire story of warcraft is the Alliance reacting to the Horde's Wanton agression and trying to reclaim their territory from the invaders aka. the horde.
PFFFFT yeah right. That's why the horde packed up and left the eastern kingdoms and moved to kalimdor to seek out their own lands.
Alterac Valley: Alliance attempting to reclaim their land from the Frostwolves who had decided to take it over during the wars.
Complete and totally wrong. The Frostwolves were in the valley first, it was uninhabited when they arrived, it was a frozen wasteland where it was impossible to live, the only reason they were able to make it a fertile land again was due to Drek'thar asking the elements for forgiveness. That was the alliance trying to take land that doesn't belong to them. Even your own brigadier generals admit it.
It's a constant war because the horde's serious case of myopia, ignoring the fact that they have no claim to azeroth outside of various plains in the barrens and Quel'thalas. Due to this, they see alliance reclamation as aggression and somehow describe their own invasion of alliance territory as simply taking what they need.
Until this stops, the horde is completely and utterly in the wrong. There is no gray, this is a war between invaders and the invaded.
Quite the opposite, the horde exists BECAUSE of the alliance, because of their hatred, their bigotry. Any crimes the horde made during the first and second war were paid dearly by all the orcs that died in those wars, and the 20+ years of slavery and torture. After the debt was paid the horde left, because they wanted no beef with the alliance, and yet what did the alliance do? followed them and attacked them. Jaina's dad attacked the town of razor hill, killing civilians.
Lor'themar is trying to return to the alliance? jaina's hatred drove him back to the horde. its the alliance's incapability of letting go of the past which causes this entire conflict to exist in the first place. The orcs were more than willing to buy wood to the alliance in an attempt to bring an end to the conflict, and it was VARIAN who backpedaled from that deal, even though a moronic mongoloid idiot could had seen that the attack on the theramoore peace summit wasn't made by the horde. (his own master spy confirmed it).
Did he came back to the warchief to secure that deal? hell no.
So yeah.
Until this stops, the horde is completely and utterly in the wrong. There is no gray, this is a war between invaders and the invaded.
Until the alliance lets go of their hatred, they are just as in the wrong as the horde is. There is no white. This is a war between oppressors and oppressed.
Post by
Snake387
Taurajo on the other hand was attacked at night, while the hunters were away, and they only left a tiny gap open that in the confusion and chaos only a handful of civilians spoted. The rest were just killed on sight by overzealous forces who then proceeded to loot the place.
Furthermore, the alliance high command wanted their soldiers to butcher everyone, and/or take hostages. Children included. That tiny gap was the decision of the commanding officer alone, for which he was chided by his superiors, showing that his decicion was not a concensus on the alliance. So........ they are totally fine with killing civilians.
First of all, attacking while the main defence force is away? That's good military tactics right there. Second of all, where's the proof that only a 'tiny' gap was left open? Chances are, that most of the civilians who died tried to defend their homes. Perfectly understandable but if you were a soldier would you take a whole lot of pain just to be nice? Third of all, the looting is proof of the Alliance being lenient and forgiving right there since the majority, if not all of the looters, were former thieves and criminals. Last of all, taking hostages? Perfect idea, what better way to gain some ground without killing anyone? And even if that is brutish and dishounarable the commanding officers who gave that order did so from their plush houses and not in the heat of battle. Also, every single war in history has had at the very least one side take hostages.
The alliance? Showed no remorse when they purged the shatterspear tribe
And why should they? The Alliance never attacked the Shatterspear Tribe when they were neutral. They only attacked them when they had allied themselves with the Horde, were receiving soldiers and supplies from the Horde and were planning to take the whole of Darkshore for the Horde, which is Alliance territory. And even if they hadn't been planning to attack Lor'danel, Horde in Alliance lands is a big no-no.
Oh, and why are we arguing about which faction is the most brutish? I mean, they're in a WAR for goodness sake, people do horrible things in war. Even now, America's killing innocent people with their drones in order to kill terrorists and America's supposed to be the 'good' side. When the British and Soviets won the Second World War they made German kids who Hitler had brainwashed work as slaves. People do horrible things in war. Fact.
Edit:
You are missing the point: Gilneas represented a vulnerable breach into the defenses of Silverpine, it was a spot from which the alliance could launch a major invasion onto silverpine. Attacking and securing that hole, WAS justified. Now, enslaving and converting the population? yes that was overkill. But securing the location wasn't. As the questchain in silverpine proved, that hole allowed a MAJOR contingency of alliance troops to make it into silverpine almost all the way to Tirisfal Glades.
Greymane wanted nothing to do with the Alliance. Heck, he closed all the ports and built a massive wall. He only attacked Silverpine Forest to defend Pyrewood Village and Ambermill.
Post by
Rankkor
Taurajo on the other hand was attacked at night, while the hunters were away, and they only left a tiny gap open that in the confusion and chaos only a handful of civilians spoted. The rest were just killed on sight by overzealous forces who then proceeded to loot the place.
Furthermore, the alliance high command wanted their soldiers to butcher everyone, and/or take hostages. Children included. That tiny gap was the decision of the commanding officer alone, for which he was chided by his superiors, showing that his decicion was not a concensus on the alliance. So........ they are totally fine with killing civilians.
First of all, attacking while the main defence force is away? That's good military tactics right there.
I never argued it wasn't effective, I argued it was morally wrong.
If we get down to it, raising the dead as your own troops like sylvannas is doing, that's good military tactics right there. You gain shock troops on the fly, and the enemy loses 2 units for the price of 1. The one that got raised, and whoever poor soul was the best friend of the recently raised soldier who would naturally hesitate to attack first.
Just because its effective, doesn't mean its ok.
Second of all, where's the proof that only a 'tiny' gap was left open?
Horde quests. The survivors described the gap as really small, and difficult to spot on the fire, the smoke, the scream and the confusion of the sudden attack. Face it man, the majority of the civilians died, only a few managed to get away.
Last of all, taking hostages? Perfect idea, what better way to gain some ground without killing anyone? And even if that is brutish and dishounarable the commanding officers who gave that order did so from their plush houses and not in the heat of battle. Also, every single war in history has had at the very least one side take hostages.
Read to my first point. Just because its effective doesn't mean its ok. The fact that the alliance was perfectly willing to do it shows they're nowhere near the good guys. The Argent Dawn fought a war against the scourge without lowering themselves to their level, despite all the insistence of Darion that they should.
The alliance? Showed no remorse when they purged the shatterspear tribe
And why should they? The Alliance never attacked the Shatterspear Tribe when they were neutral. They only attacked them when they had allied themselves with the Horde, were receiving soldiers and supplies from the Horde and were planning to take the whole of Darkshore for the Horde, which is Alliance territory. And even if they hadn't been planning to attack Lor'danel, Horde in Alliance lands is a big no-no.
Once more, its not the attack that was wrong, it was the purging of every living soul in the village that was. Genocide is ALWAYS WRONG. Its NEVER EVER EVER justified.
Oh, and why are we arguing about which faction is the most brutish? I mean, they're in a WAR for goodness sake, people do horrible things in war. Even now, America's killing innocent people with their drones in order to kill terrorists and America's supposed to be the 'good' side. When the British and Soviets won the Second World War they made German kids who Hitler had brainwashed work as slaves. People do horrible things in war. Fact.
We're arguing it because I'm getting the vibe here that the horde are a pack of monsters who do horrible things and the alliance are a bunch of white-knight holier-than-thou pack of saints who have jesus' blood on their veins and have never hurt so much a fly let alone another innocent creature.
The reality is that neither side is better than the other one. They're both a bunch of bastardos.
Post by
Snake387
I never did say that the Alliance wasn't some goody-two shoes faction, anybody with a brain realizes that.
Once more, its not the attack that was wrong, it was the purging of every living soul in the village that was. Genocide is ALWAYS WRONG. Its NEVER EVER EVER justified.
So if someone destroyed the whole of the Burning Legion or all of the Scourge then that wouldn't be justified? Keep on believing that.
If we get down to it, raising the dead as your own troops like sylvannas is doing, that's good military tactics right there. You gain shock troops on the fly, and the enemy loses 2 units for the price of 1. The one that got raised, and whoever poor soul was the best friend of the recently raised soldier who would naturally hesitate to attack first.
Actually it is good military tactics, it's just that nobody else sees it like that. But essentially, I applaud her on that which is why I wish she'd just die a couple more times until she has no Valk'yr left.
Horde quests. The survivors described the gap as really small, and difficult to spot on the fire, the smoke, the scream and the confusion of the sudden attack. Face it man, the majority of the civilians died, only a few managed to get away.
And the survivors who said that could have been biased? Though about that?
Actually I was talking about every single loyal citizen of Dalaran who just happened to be a blood elf, and got their civil rights suspended, all personal property confiscated, and their freedom revoked just because one crazy woman decided to play Rage-a-holic Bigot.
The Sunreavers had broken their neutrality twice. What did you expect Jaina to do? She already gave them a second chance.
And you seem to forget that the Horde burnt down Camp Aparaje. No gap in the lines there, hmm?
Post by
morginar
Actually I was talking about every single loyal citizen of Dalaran who just happened to be a blood elf, and got their civil rights suspended, all personal property confiscated, and their freedom revoked just because one crazy woman decided to play Rage-a-holic Bigot.
The Sunreavers had broken their neutrality twice. What did you expect Jaina to do? She already gave them a second chance.
Two rogue members made the sunreavers as a whole traitors?
Shall i raise that with ambermill?
Or point out:When the continent of Pandaria was discovered by Horde forces, Lor'themar and the blood elves were invited to help conquer the new land, but the sinister methods of Warchief Garrosh Hellscream led Lor'themar to reconsider his position. The regent lord initiated conversations with King Varian Wrynn, hoping to rejoin the Alliance, but Garrosh sabotaged his diplomatic efforts by organizing a heist in Darnassus and focusing blame on the blood elves. Now resigned to the eventuality of intra-factional war, Lor'themar awaits the right moment to rise up against Garrosh and restore the glory of his people.
Post by
Snake387
Two rogue members made the sunreavers as a whole traitors?
No, but if two sunreavers betray Dalaran, who knows what could happen next? An insurgency? An assassination? The Sunreavers had broken Dalaran's neutrality twice, their counterparts hadn't broken it once and they should suffer just because Jaina wanted to be lenient? How is that fair?
Post by
morginar
Two rogue members made the sunreavers as a whole traitors?
No, but if two sunreavers betray Dalaran, who knows what could happen next? An insurgency? An assassination? The Sunreavers had broken Dalaran's neutrality twice, their counterparts hadn't broken it once and they should suffer just because Jaina wanted to be lenient? How is that fair?
Ambermill.
Ambermill Magister
Look at the tabard.
Archmage Ataeric
Look at his set.
And they battle the forsaken.
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