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Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God
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Post by
Squishalot
To be fair though, that is how it's being reported pretty much everywhere.
It's being reported as 'Pope Francis says that atheists will be redeemed', and then reporting the fact his words were in a homily to believers, using passages from the Bible that relate to disciples who wanted to shun people trying to do good who weren't followers of Jesus. It was also reported in contrast to Pope Benedict's views that made 'non-Catholics feel like second-class people'. To me, it seemed very clear that it was a message to Catholics to remind them that they shouldn't have a 'holier than thou' attitude to the non-Catholics and not to judge people simply because they are not Catholic, because if they're doing good, then, well, that's good.
I was talking about the Pope's obvious desire to focus on actions, not who did them. Like the good Samaritan.
It's a very Jesuit-oriented message, isn't it? Do the right thing, and let God take care of the rest.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Francis' Jesuit formation has really been coming through these last months. Some of the greatest priests I know are Jesuits, and I have a good deal of respect of that Order in particular. I'm interested in seeing how his papacy starts to pan out as he gets his feet on the ground.
Post by
Monday
Regarding the general topic though, I find this sort of thing distasteful, like baptising people after they've died. It's like claiming people even when they don't want it and it happens a lot.
Look at it from the religious side, though. If people cannot ascend to heaven if they are unbaptized, wouldn't baptizing them after they died be a boon to them?
It's not about "claiming" people at all. It's about ensuring their eternal salvation.
Post by
asakawa
If someone specifically requested it in a will then that's not what I'm talking about. If they didn't do that then I see it as a great disrespect to the deceased to presume so much.
Post by
Skreeran
As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care what happens to me after I die.
See here
.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
If someone specifically requested it in a will then that's not what I'm talking about. If they didn't do that then I see it as a great disrespect to the deceased to presume so much.
So respect for them is worth more than their salvation?
Also, what if the family were the ones doing it?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Perhaps I should clarify that, to me, baptism is the first step to eternal salvation and nothing could be complete without it.
I'd prefer to just be dead.
So you'd prefer an eternity away from God because of pride?
Well, I guess you remain firm in your convictions, even if they seem illogical.
If your family member wanted it done, they would've done it, or told you to do it.
Or perhaps they wanted it done but were to prideful to ask? Perhaps they had never heard the word of God? Perhaps they were ashamed of having led a sinful life and didn't want to get an earthly ordinance?
Once again, let me state this with the following words:
Look at it from the religious side, though.
Both your argument and asakawas are based on the fact that God doesn't exist, and thus it is disrespectful to the dead to do it. I respond that, from a side which believes that God exists, it is of the utmost gravity to baptize all that we can (though there are a few groups my Church will not baptize, such as Holocaust victims, because of the respect you have spoken of).
So unless we can approach this from each other's point of view, we will remain at an impasse.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
An eternity away from god because I could not care less about god.
You understand nothing of the His nature, which means I'm done. Ciao.
Post by
Adamsm
That's the thing though Funden: I don't want to spend an eternity at the side of God, since I do not believe in Him. If I was baptized after I was dead, I would be very pissed off about that, since that would go against my own personal wishes.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
I'm not really a big fan of baptizing babies, or the dead. I believe it has to be a person's own choice to follow Christ. While I don't think it's necessarily offensive to baptize a dead body, I don't think it's really anything more than a gesture.
Although if I were an atheist, and I died, and it made my family feel better to have my body baptized, I wouldn't deny them that gesture just because of some idea of secular principle. It's just water.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm just going to reiterate that I don't really care what happens to me after I'm dead. If I'm right, then I won't exactly be around to mind.
Post by
Gone
I hope nobody finds this offensive (I've become weary about posting silly stuff in a serious topic), but all this talk about baptism kind of reminds me of
this
scene from the Sopranos. Makes me chuckle.
Post by
asakawa
If someone specifically requested it in a will then that's not what I'm talking about. If they didn't do that then I see it as a great disrespect to the deceased to presume so much.
So respect for them is worth more than their salvation?Absolutely
Also, what if the family were the ones doing it?Against the wishes of the deceased? That's even worse!
Would you be okay if, the day you died, your family found pure truth in Islam and rushed to convert your eternal soul to that faith and away from what you had believed and practiced your whole life?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Why do the wishes of a being that has ceased to exist have any moral weight?
Post by
Adamsm
Why do the wishes of a being that has ceased to exist have any moral weight?
Because if a group supposedly has respect for the dead, doing something against the dead man's wishes flies in the face of that, and is a massive insult.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Insult to whom?
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