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Do you believe in God?
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Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
I'd be really interested to hear people with differing religions (or even different takes on the same religion) talk about stuff too as it's a perspective that I don't have myself. I don't really see any reason that those discussions can't take place though.
Personally I don't want to "debate". Debating implies winning and I don't have anything to win. I would like to discuss things with other adults who are interested in that discussion.
Sadly, not all share your point of view.
That's fine. You mentioned liking debate above but in your recent post say that the debate 'feel' is a bad thing. I'm merely hoping to reassert that the debate isn't necessary in a thread with this topic and we can each prevent that from happening by not engaging in it ourselves.
We may wish to ignore those who start to post in a combative way or engage them but choosing to post in a purely discussive tone is the way in which we can all contribute to better threads.
...
Part of the solution and not the problem
-
be the change you want to see in the world
etc. etc.
I would really like if people stopped seeing sides in this thread and in other discussions like this one. There aren't two opposing forces here just some people talking to each other.
I'm afraid I must disagree, and I feel that the thread has been proving my point.
I don't see how this thread has proven anything of the sort.
I'm not a 'side', I'm just a chap - talk to me! ^_^
If someone says or asks something that interests you then you should reply. If someone does or says something you think crosses a line or breaks a forum rule then report it
Of course I will do that. However, our ideas of what crosses a line differ, to be frank, and I'm not sure that it would make too much of a difference.
Speaking briefly as a moderator, we don't tend to get many reports about these threads, as strange as that might sound. If there were very many reports that were regularly being declined then I would feel like there would be reason for an assessment of where that line lies. Too many reports is always best and even when moderators don't feel like a line has been crossed it's useful to know the point where people are made uncomfortable and might allow things to be salvaged before anything as extreme as warnings are required. Essentially, please report things even if it's a report like "this is borderline but I feel it may be inappropriate" or similar.
I use this box for this because we make a concerted effort not to personally moderate threads in which we take part so although I'm speaking generally above and not actually moderating this thread, I'm hoping to delineate the area where I have a moderator hat on in order to reduce confusion when I post the rest of the time in the thread.
Post by
Magician22773
Asakawa,
Its pretty tough to try to follow the "rules" when mods both interact in a thread as a moderator, and as a participant. It has always been more lenient here in OT as to discussing moderation, specifically when it applies to threads where the mods are actively participating in them in both roles.
I
have
reported Sold's posts. Not the ones where I disagreed with his positions, but specifically the ones that were all but obvious that he was simply trolling about "not understanding" the verse that was posted.
I intentionally used the NIV translation of that verse, as I usually do, because it removes most of the "Biblical" style of language that can make it it more difficult to read. Furthermore, others even explained the verse, line by line, in plain English (a language the he seems to have a pretty good understanding of), and he still keeps up with the "I don't get it" line. Not "I don't believe it", not "I don't care about it"...but "I don't understand".
You, me, and everyone else here "understand" what that verse says, regardless if you believe it or not. It is not written in parable, or Greek. And with the line by line breakdown that was given, any possible misunderstanding was removed with that. Yet, my report, requesting the trolling be addressed, was ignored. If you are looking for multiple reports before taking action, you are smart enough to realize that you have maybe 3 or 4 people in this discussion that are on one side, and a whole slew of people that are on the other. So if you require multiple reports to deem something inappropriate, then I guess the "non-Christians" in this thread pretty much have nothing to worry about, because they hold a super majority on the forum.
As for me being "nicer" about how I put it...I am somewhat surprised that a few people felt that way. The verse (Mat 7:6) is the Biblical verse that specifically addresses why Christians should not try to "debate" the Bible with those that have no intention to learn from its teaching, and instead, will use whatever you offer to them from it against you. I do not think that there is a "nicer" way of putting it, than putting the way Jesus told us too.
Post by
MyTie
Or I really can't read it because it's written in such a poor manner.
You're certainly entitled to that opinion. If that is the extent of it, then so be it. But, we haven't been discussing your critical opinion of Paul's literary style, but on the meaning of the words. The question is "do you want to understand what is written", not "grade Paul's writing". These are two separate things. You cannot appeal to us to reject the writings because you feel they are written poorly, just as I couldn't expect to convert you to Christianity based on the wonderful grammar in the Bible. You come across as very arrogant and rude, to insist that the text is written poorly, gibberish, and that you "hate" the author. You don't have a high opinion of Christianity. We understand that. And, I hate to break it to you, but this wouldn't be the first time we have encountered someone of that mentality. You aren't unique. So, if you have that opinion, we would all be happy to let you have that opinion and move along. If it goes beyond that, and you have a desire to understand what is written, then we can help. I've explained that 4 out of 5 people in our conversation have been able to make sense of what was written, and arrived at the same understanding of it. That leaves just you. The 4 of us independently arrived at the same conclusion. Based on that, it is safe to assume that some meaning can be derived out of the text. It isn't as incomprehensible as you believe.
If you insist that you hate the Christian texts, and you have no desire to understand what the Christian texts say, then that is your decision. It is, be definition, closed minded, but that is your choice. If so, just say so, and we can all move on. But, please, stop just leaving one snippet little antagonistic lines that you think are telling me off about how dumb the writing is. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by doing that. It isn't upsetting me, if that is your aim. I just don't want to take the chance that you are trying to keep an open mind and struggling to understand. That possibility seems to be narrowing with every post you make, though.
I honestly don't want to close the door on you. If you want understanding, I genuinely want to help you. It's just very difficult for me to make that call about your desires. It would be easier if you spelled out what you want out of this conversation.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I'm not trying to insult you, just because my opinion of something you like is negative does not mean I am personally attacking you.I'm not under the impression that you are personally attacking me. I haven't been. I think you are being antagonistic, but not attacking.If you're trying to open my mind to christianity, forget it, I don't agree with some of the things your god has done, for the reasons he has done them, and what he continues to do to this day, for the reasons he does them.I don't want to open your mind. It would be easier for me to fly around the world by flapping my arms than to open someone else's mind. It can't be done. You open your own mind. My only question was if your mind was open or not. Apparently, it isn't. That's quite obviously the source of your confusion. I'm glad that you told me. It clears up the picture and allows me to walk away from an already closed door, without feeling like I was the one that closed it. Good day, sir.
Post by
asakawa
Then perhaps we could draw a line under that whole discussion.
The verse was mentioned in passing and in relation to a point in the discussion but we haven't really touched on the topic itself for a while now.
I wonder could I ask people; if they believe in a god do they believe that prayer to that god can affect the world in which we live? And is there a benefit to praying for loved ones who have died?
This isn't something I intend to debate or disassemble, it's just an interesting question to try to nudge us back toward discussion.
Post by
Adamsm
if they believe in a god do they believe that prayer to that god can affect the world in which we live?I do...of course, I'm also part of a belief that holds you have to do everything possible for yourself too before turning to prayer so...
And is there a benefit to praying for loved ones who have died?For them? Not so much. For us? Of course; makes people feel better so nothing really wrong with it.
Post by
Gone
I wonder could I ask people; if they believe in a god do they believe that prayer to that god can affect the world in which we live? And is there a benefit to praying for loved ones who have died?
This isn't something I intend to debate or disassemble, it's just an interesting question to try to nudge us back toward discussion.
You know, as a person of faith, that's something I've wondered about more than almost anything else. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then that means that everything that happens is pretty much part of his own design. So words from us will what, change Gods will? Unless God knew from the beginning that we would be praying for what he intended to change, which an omniscient God would, and set things up (so to speak) so that what we are praying for comes to pass anyway. And in this case, it kind of brings the whole free will thing into question.
I really don't know tbh. I do think there is power in prayer, but whether it changes things in the world? I don't know.
Post by
Magician22773
Hey moderators, can we have a bit of balance in this thread.
The religious side of this debate seem be getting away with murder in this thread. I thought we were supposed to be showing tolerance for other peoples views or maybe that doesn't count for the views of the non-religious.
If you read the thread from the beginning, some of the posters appear to have been waiting for somebody to jump on and they found one and have been jumping on him ever since.
Until they did this, the thread was going along quite nicely with no real problems but now it feels that there's no point in posting if you don't believe in god and you want to express why.
I guess I must have read a different thread.
I saw a thread where people were expressing their answers to a question, and then someone decided to hurl a direct insult at one, and only one, position of belief. And that person was NOT on the "religious side" of this debate.
Until they did that, the thread was going along quite nicely with no real problems.
If you do not believe in God, feel free to post. If you want to express why, however, you should consider if that reason is going to be insulting to those that do, and if so, maybe you should keep that reasoning to yourself. Unless, of course, you are OK with hearing my negative opinions of your negative opinion.
Sold could just as easily posted "I do not believe in God, because I have some personal issues with the teachings of the Christian faith". There is no insult there, and it would have conveyed the same message. But he chose to hurl an insult, and in turn, you see the results.
You ask for balance...that is balance. You should not expect to be able to insult one faith, yet complain when followers of that faith do not respond in a kind manner to your disrespect.
Post by
Squishalot
Its pretty tough to try to follow the "rules" when mods both interact in a thread as a moderator, and as a participant. It has always been more lenient here in OT as to discussing moderation, specifically when it applies to threads where the mods are actively participating in them in both roles.
Hey Magician - that's actually the reason why I've tried to stay out of this thread (which has been a struggle, as religion has always been one of my favourite topics to discuss). To the best of our ability, we try to avoid moderating threads where we've been actively posting and engaging in the discussion, which is why Kangi and I are in a position to have that 'stepped back' view of what's going on in this thread, compared to, say, asakawa.
There is nothing about having a super-majority on the forum or anything of the sort. There's no personal bias in the moderation community - we've got asakawa and Sas who are atheist, Elhonna is religious (Christian leaning, I think....?), Kangi is Christian, I'm agnostic, so we're definitely not 'taking sides', as a group.
As I believe I mentioned before - having a negative opinion of another concept is OK - we're not going to have productive discussions if we all sit here and agree with each other. The important thing is to ensure that any negative opinions are not personal attacks on
other forum users
. It's one thing to say "the basis behind atheism is stupid" (acceptable) and a completely different thing to say "you are stupid if you're an atheist" (not acceptable, and not productive from a discussion perspective anyway). A general rant / argument / attack on a concept is perfectly fair game. If you want to launch into why atheism is a flawed and stupid concept, feel free to, and as a moderator, I will defend your posts accordingly, as long as you're not attacking the
people
.
Post by
asakawa
A smart fellow is commonly believed to have suggested that turning the other cheek is better than an eye for an eye. If you feel like someone insulted you on a forum then I think that responding in kind is probably the least productive thing to do.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm rather more interested in hearing what people have to say about the topic than what people have to say about the argument over the argument that was an off topic derail to the topic.
edit: Hehe, and with Squish's post in there when I click submit it looks like I'm saying it to him ^_^(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I said I hated him
Keeping in mind that I have no intention of trying to convince you otherwise, could you briefly explain which specific things have led you to this conclusion?
Post by
Gone
I said I hated him
Keeping in mind that I have no intention of trying to convince you otherwise, could you briefly explain which specific things have led you to this conclusion?
Yea I wouldn't mind knowing this as well. And it's hardly off topic to the threads theme.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Jubilee
I wonder could I ask people; if they believe in a god do they believe that prayer to that god can affect the world in which we live?
I think that whether God, a god, gods, spirits or nothing at all divine exists, ultimately people are the engine that drives humanity. You can believe in miracles and the power of faith, but people are the one's out there doing good and evil. People are the ones curing diseases and committing genocide. So pray whatever prayers you have you pray, perform whatever rituals you have to perform, believe whatever you have to believe, but then stand up, do good, take responsibility for your actions, and be the change you want to see.
Post by
Gone
I said I hated him
Keeping in mind that I have no intention of trying to convince you otherwise, could you briefly explain which specific things have led you to this conclusion?
How bout the millions of innocent people he's murdered (or had someone else kill), simply for not worshipping him, or something along those lines? (And, to my knowledge, he has no remorse for these murders)
Can you give me an example of this?
how bout sending people to hell to burn in fire for all eternity, or suffer a second death (which is the destruction of their very souls, their freaking, SOULS) just for not worshipping him/not believing in his existence/lying/stealing/worshiping other gods/ other screwed up reasons. How bout that. Let's go with that. I think there's other reasons I'm forgetting but I don't feel like recalling them tonight, probably will tomorrow. I'm sorry, but someone who does what he's done for the reasons he's done them, is pure, black, evil.
There's a lot of discrepancy about what Hell actually is. There really isn't a description of it in the Bible, other than that there is a lake of fire. The original word used was Hades, the Greek name for Hell, but that was a mistranslation of the word sheol, which means a cavern, pit, or grave.
Most of the modern images we have of Hell come from Dante's Divine Comedy, and things like that.
Taken from the Bible and the Torah, Hell isn't necessarily a place where people burn for all eternity. It's just a place where the damned who are not allowed into Heaven are sent to. A lot of Biblical scholars believe that the torture in Hell is as a result of being banished from paradise, rather than actual pain they are being subjected to.
It sounds like your basing your opinion of the Christian God based on things people have done in his name, or things people have said in his name. It's the opinion of the ignorant and uneducated your offering. This is the typical double standard bull#$%^ that's happening with the growing secularization of western culture. With Christianity being the largest and most dominant western religion, people spread the stereotype of uneducated, old world, violence, which other people like you gobble up without ever bothering to educate yourself on the subject.
Post by
asakawa
@Jubilee, I like your post very much!
@ofLegends, that's what I thought. I don't really understand hating a god when you don't believe in it - and particularly in being angry about a metaphysical punishment (souls etc.) that you also don't buy into.
If you don't believe in it then presumably you can't attribute anything to that entity meaning that the blame for the evils you've identified would go to men. you might hate some of the actions done by men in the name of a specific god - I suppose that would be pretty close to how I feel sometimes which is why I'm open about being broadly against organised religions. But hating a god requires belief in it, no?
edit: BTW, I once heard that there really is no hell in the old testament and it was a new testament idea. Is that true or is it more that hell isn't part of Jewish teachings and therefore gets attributed to NT?(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Magician22773
How bout the millions of innocent people he's murdered (or had someone else kill), simply for not worshipping him, or something along those lines? (And, to my knowledge, he has no remorse for these murders)
Then you must also hate nearly all other "gods" as well. Somewhere, someone has done atrocities in the misguided name of their religion. Many Muslims continue to do it still, indiscriminately killing thousands of people simply because they are "infidel's". The ancient people of Egypt and Greece often sacrificed the most innocent of people...children...in horrible, heinous ways to their gods. Some cultural tribes today still do horrible things to people in the name of their gods. Atheists have killed many, many more people for purely selfish reasons than all of the Crusades every thought about. Why not express your "hate" of Atheism?
So why not call out "all gods"...rather than just the Christian God?
How bout sending people to hell to burn in fire for all eternity, or suffer a second death (which is the destruction of their very souls, their freaking, SOULS) just for not worshipping him/
not believing in his existence
/lying/stealing/worshiping other gods/ other screwed up reasons. How bout that. Let's go with that.
How about the fact that he offers an eternity of bliss, peace, love, joy, happiness, and no pain in return for something as simple as
believing
in Him? None of your other "screwed up reasons" separate you from Him, those are forgiven simply by asking, and by believing in Christ. That seems pretty easy going to me. No rituals, no lifetime of celibacy, no other requirements other than simple acceptance of His grace in return for eternal life.
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