This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Do you believe in God?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Squishalot
I recall God being downright magnanimous with the Pharaoh up until the end. God sent plague after plague and he still refused to set his slaves free.Do I need to bring up the verses I already quoted again? Plague refused because God hardened his heart. Would he have refused if God hadn't? Who knows. What we do know is what it says in Exodus. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he could send the plagues and show off his power.
Still trying to stay out of this, but the KJV has a bad reputation for quoting and is frowned upon by most Christian denominations. The NIV is generally seen as the closest to what most denominations follow, as far as I'm aware.
I've seen a defence of this that says that this only refers to those who have heard and understood but rejected the truth.
I don't know the quote, but I believe there is something along the lines of "if you choose to reject Him" that is used elsewhere. It's one of those things where if you take a single verse, not in the context of all the other verses in the Bible, then you're not going to get the whole picture. One thing that I've learned about BIble study as a non-Christian is that single verses are meaningless unless it is unambiguously contradictory to other things.
Post by
Skreeran
I recall God being downright magnanimous with the Pharaoh up until the end. God sent plague after plague and he still refused to set his slaves free.Do I need to bring up the verses I already quoted again? Plague refused because God hardened his heart. Would he have refused if God hadn't? Who knows. What we do know is what it says in Exodus. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he could send the plagues and show off his power.
Still trying to stay out of this, but the KJV has a bad reputation for quoting and is frowned upon by most Christian denominations. The NIV is generally seen as the closest to what most denominations follow, as far as I'm aware.If you'll go back a page, I actually disseminated it into the original Hebrew.
Post by
Squishalot
If you'll go back a page, I actually disseminated it into the original Hebrew.
You're still using an NKJV translation of said original Hebrew, rather than your own independent understanding of Hebrew. Of course you're going to get the same translation :P
Edit: To be precise, if you and I translate something, we're likely to get slightly differing results with particular differences in relation to nuance. The KJV has been widely discredited for those translations, so using its translation of the underlying Hebrew doesn't change that argument. To suggest that the KJV passage is correct, you would need to use an independently verified translation, whether it's a different Bible, a translation tool online, or your own understanding.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
"The majority of Christians who believe in the immortality of the soul regard the second death to mean eternal suffering or torment in a place called the Lake of Fire, though a minority of Christians who believe in the immortality of the soul teach universal salvation.
Mortalists, including some Anglicans, some Lutherans, all Seventh-day Adventists, and others, oppose the idea of eternal suffering but believe that the Second death is an actual second death, meaning that the soul perishes and will be annihilated after the final judgment
."
Do you own any knives?
Post by
Monday
Where is this from?
... Exodus.
Post by
PTsICU
Okay, since my last post was not really helpful apparently to any discussion outside of MyTie, I'd like to ask another question if I may.
Why does the word of an all knowing, all powerful god need so many translations, and so many updates, etc? In my mind, that leaves a lot of possibilities for mistakes and misuse of his message. If he wants us to understand his word, wouldn't he find a better way to give it to all?
And that is a serious question of curiosity, for the sake that people here continue to think I'm being obtuse or inflammatory. I may not agree with what some of you believe or think, but I do like to hear what you think and how you arrive at your thinking on the subject.
If this seems redundant or inflammatory to those reading it, simply skip and ignore my entry.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Okay, since my last post was not really helpful apparently to any discussion outside of MyTie, I'd like to ask another question if I may.
Why does the word of an all knowing, all powerful god need so many translations, and so many updates, etc? In my mind, that leaves a lot of possibilities for mistakes and misuse of his message. If he wants us to understand his word, wouldn't he find a better way to give it to all?
And that is a serious question of curiosity, for the sake that people here continue to think I'm being obtuse or inflammatory. I may not agree with what some of you believe or think, but I do like to hear what you think and how you arrive at your thinking on the subject.
If this seems redundant or inflammatory to those reading it, simply skip and ignore my entry.
Still trying to avoid getting deep into the discussion, but I'll try to answer here:
1) People are stupid, and have the capability of misinterpreting things.
2) God didn't create so many translations, people did, because they misinterpret and disagree on things (see <1>).
3) It's entirely possible that there were no updates, and that the Jews were right :P
Post by
MyTie
"The majority of Christians who believe in the immortality of the soul regard the second death to mean eternal suffering or torment in a place called the Lake of Fire, though a minority of Christians who believe in the immortality of the soul teach universal salvation.
Mortalists, including some Anglicans, some Lutherans, all Seventh-day Adventists, and others, oppose the idea of eternal suffering but believe that the Second death is an actual second death, meaning that the soul perishes and will be annihilated after the final judgment
."
Do you own any knives?
I have sharp objects that when one applies enough pressure to a soft enough object, slice through or poke through, yes.
When you have a friend over, if one of those people were to stab him/her self with your knife, what kind of blame should you take for their action?
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Magician22773
Since you are basing your hate of God on the story of Exodus, I will assume you also believe the rest of the Bible, specifically, Genesis. I won't bother to quote the actual scripture, since that is just all gibberish, instead, I will just summarize a little.
God created us, with the intention that we would live in a paradise here on Earth. There would be no suffering, no pain, no death. In return, He asked only that we obey Him. Seems like a reasonable request to me.
To ensure that we were obeying Him because we wanted to, not because we were made to do so, He gave us free will to choose. Eve screwed the pooch here, and in return, we were exiled from paradise, and were then subject to God's wrath.
Thankfully, through Christ, we have been given an avenue to return to that paradise, although not here on Earth. And again, you have a simple request to follow...simply believe. While you are here on Earth, you are still subject to the wrath that was brought upon all mankind by sin.
So you can choose to be pissed if you want about what He has done, to you, to others, or to people thousands of years ago, and you can suffer for that choice. Again...free will.
Me, I choose to accept that I am a sinner, and that my suffering here IS justified. And I know that by accepting that, and believing in the finished works of Christ, that I will be saved from God's final judgement, and that I will spend an eternity in the manner that God originally planned, with Him in paradise.
Post by
MyTie
None, assuming I had no reason to believe my friend would do that.
Just curious. Thanks for answering my questions.
Post by
Gone
I'm gonna take a step back from this for a day or so, I'll respond to all this later.
Post by
Skreeran
Edit: To be precise, if you and I translate something, we're likely to get slightly differing results with particular differences in relation to nuance. The KJV has been widely discredited for those translations, so using its translation of the underlying Hebrew doesn't change that argument. To suggest that the KJV passage is correct, you would need to use an independently verified translation, whether it's a different Bible, a translation tool online, or your own understanding.But that link that I linked was of an online Bible resource that had access to most if not all translations, and the dictionary pages (like
this
) weren't built on any one translation of the Bible.
Besides, the NIV translates it damn near the same way.
Post by
Squishalot
Skreeran - reading the passage from Exodus 7 in its entirety (i.e. 1:5), I actually interpret it not as an explicit action (i.e. that God will harden Pharaoh's heart intentionally to make things more difficult), but rather, that He foresees that
His message
will cause Pharaoh to become more stubborn. In the context of an omniscient, all-knowing being, that would be a reasonable interpretation, no?
Consider the analogy:
"I will lay down the law as a moderator in this thread and bring order to the community. But I will harden the gap between some members and the moderator team, and those people will not listen to me. Then I will bring out the banhammer."
It's not to suggest that I will intentionally cause a divide and alienate people, but rather, the process of my actions will result in that consequence.
Post by
Skreeran
Then it sure is nice that Hebrew has a lot of different tenses indicating intent, right?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/lexicalDefinitions.cfm?lang=H&num=8840
Post by
Squishalot
Then it sure is nice that Hebrew has a lot of different tenses indicating intent, right?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/lexicalDefinitions.cfm?lang=H&num=8840
Using your site, for reference (
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2388&t=NKJV
):
b) (Piel)
1) to make strong
2) to restore to strength, give strength
3) to strengthen, sustain, encourage
4) to make strong, make bold, encourage
5) to make firm
6) to make rigid, make hard
None of that is contrary to my interpretation of what was said. The Piel tense does not necessarily indicate an action of intent, and even then, it makes sense in the context of the concept that God knows what will occur, and is willing to make it happen anyway due to there being no other choice.
Using the analogy above again, I will intentionally and willingly turn people against me on the forums if it's for the greater good by providing law and order.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Skreeran
That still doesn't make sense in the context of the story. God didn't make Pharaoh's heart heart
by
bringing the plagues, he hardened his heart
so he could
bring the ten plagues.
Source.
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do.
But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Post by
Squishalot
You're making a false assumption that I'm suggesting the plagues are what hardened Pharaoh's heart. It's the initial message that got Pharaoh's tail up. Likewise, it's not the banhammer that will make people hate me on the forum (though appreciably, it assists in that regard!) it's the message that I'm sending that they disagree with initially. The plagues are a completely separate issue.
On a side note: this is what I enjoy about Bible study, despite being agnostic. There are so many different ways of reading and interpreting the text and it's interesting to see how different people see it, and to open your eyes up to some of those different ways, rather than fixating on a single interpretation. What I don't understand about so many Bible study groups is when they sit down and discuss the text, and simply lap up whatever their church leader tells them.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.