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Could You Forgive Arthas?
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Post by
Rankkor
Indeed. I always felt it was BS that Darth Vader got to ascend into holy-jedi form at the end of Episode six, just because he had a change of heart in the very last second. I mean, the guy goes and murders an entire temple full of children, leads a purge of force users across the galaxy, and helps establish a totalitarian hellhole of a government for a madman, serving as his bloodhound.
Then at the very last second, for very simpathetic reasons he helps save his son's life, and for that ONE selfless action he gets to avoid having his soul go to hell? gimme a break. I'm glad that with Arthas we had some semblance of justice.
Post by
Behelich
Indeed. I always felt it was BS that Darth Vader got to ascend into holy-jedi form at the end of Episode six, just because he had a change of heart in the very last second. I mean, the guy goes and murders an entire temple full of children, leads a purge of force users across the galaxy, and helps establish a totalitarian hellhole of a government for a madman, serving as his bloodhound.
Then at the very last second, for very simpathetic reasons he helps save his son's life, and for that ONE selfless action he gets to avoid having his soul go to hell? gimme a break. I'm glad that with Arthas we had some semblance of justice.
Though we're veering off-topic here, I feel the need to point out that despite his treatment of the Imperial officers, Vader cared about rank-and-file soldiers and was always fighting in the front rows as an example to his men, who in turn were loyal to him and gladly fought under his command.
Besides, the Empire looked bad, but the Republic used to be even worse. The regime was totalitarian, yes, but in many ways it was an improvement over the load of problems the Republic used to have.
Post by
Rankkor
Indeed. I always felt it was BS that Darth Vader got to ascend into holy-jedi form at the end of Episode six, just because he had a change of heart in the very last second. I mean, the guy goes and murders an entire temple full of children, leads a purge of force users across the galaxy, and helps establish a totalitarian hellhole of a government for a madman, serving as his bloodhound.
Then at the very last second, for very simpathetic reasons he helps save his son's life, and for that ONE selfless action he gets to avoid having his soul go to hell? gimme a break. I'm glad that with Arthas we had some semblance of justice.
Though we're veering off-topic here, I feel the need to point out that despite his treatment of the Imperial officers, Vader cared about rank-and-file soldiers and was always fighting in the front rows as an example to his men, who in turn were loyal to him and gladly fought under his command.
Besides, the Empire looked bad, but the Republic used to be even worse. The regime was totalitarian, yes, but in many ways it was an improvement over the load of problems the Republic used to have.
I'm feeling tempted to create a new thread on offtopic to continue this discussion (I <3 the Star Wars Expanded Universe). As indeed doing so here, would be going offtopic of the main subject.
he killed children though. that's a biggie.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lordplatypus
As a self-crowned King of Lordaeron, he seems to think of his undead warriors as his new subjects that he actually has to look after - for example, when fleeing soon-to-be-Undercity and gathering the surviving (in a broad sense of the word) loyalists, he sprouts lines like "I cannot leave my loyal subjects to be killed by this rabble!"
Don't forget he seems to view Kel'Thuzad as a Friend rather than a minion. I think his main objective was caring for his "People" and somehow, He was twisted into thinking of the scourge as his.
He may have redeemed himself at the end, by slaying mannoroth at the cost of his life,
He only cared to free himself, it was thrall's rose tinted view of things where he freed the others.
Despite all that, Arthas let himself be killed and is now facing a very real hell - one he must have known about, since after all he was the master of val'kyr, their Death God. He knowingly condemned himself to eternal suffering so that the Scourge could be brought down.
^ Can't say anything else.
who are you talking about? Kael? how exactly did we "lost arthas for kael"? neither got any prominent focus, and as far as Kael goes, his characterization was thrown out the window and he was made a pathetic bootlicker, while arthas went from the badass villain he was in War3 to a saturday-morning cartoon villain in WOTLK.
Slyvannas, She's pretty much stuffed her face into their tabard alongside a bunch of arrows, and unlike arthas, she has NO redeeming qualities.
Though we're veering off-topic here, I feel the need to point out that despite his treatment of the Imperial officers, Vader cared about rank-and-file soldiers and was always fighting in the front rows as an example to his men, who in turn were loyal to him and gladly fought under his command.
Yes, the 501st who fought with him for years before and after. But what i don't understand is why they never show this.
Post by
Rankkor
Don't forget he seems to view Kel'Thuzad as a Friend rather than a minion. I think his main objective was caring for his "People" and somehow, He was twisted into thinking of the scourge as his.
Even if this was true (and I'm not convinced it is, but for argument sake I'll roll with it) undeath is NOT a positive condition. He effectively spread an epidemic to wipe out his own people and his neighbors. This is something I can't forgive. While (much like sold's stance on sylvannas) I liked him as a villain in war3 (much as how I like Joker as a villain) I wouldn't be able to forgive his crimes because (and this is important) HE KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE.
Willingly if I may add. There are some cases where deaths of innocents could be forgiven (a person being the victim of mindcontrol can't be held accountable for their actions, its the one doing the mindcontrolling that is responsible. Ditto for a reanimated corpse killing stuff, its the one pulling the strings that has to be held accountable. Arthas had neither. No mind-control, and since he was alive, no strings being pulled either. True that frostmourne drove him to insanity, but insanity is a poor excuse for murder.
He only cared to free himself, it was thrall's rose tinted view of things where he freed the others.
regardless of what you think of his motivation, you can't deny that his actions brought a cascade effect that freed the orcs once and for all of any traces of demon control. And that's worth something. It obviously will NOT wash away all the crimes he commited, but it absolves him a bit. IF you truly believe Vader deserved redemption because he cared for his troops, then you "should" feel the same about grom because he too cared a lot for his clan, and was the only chieftain who managed to keep his people away from internment camps besides the reclusive frostwolves who never fought in the war in the first place.
Slyvannas, She's pretty much stuffed her face into their tabard alongside a bunch of arrows, and unlike arthas, she has NO redeeming qualities
I disagree, but that's personal opinion for you =/
of course, she lost a lot of points for me as of cataclysm because of her use of the valks.
Yes, the 501st who fought with him for years before and after. But what i don't understand is why they never show this.
Because the movies were pretty much 100% black&white. Its the expanded universe that is more Gray&Gray, showing the good of the empire and the bad of the republic, as well as giving more depth to each character other than OMG HE HAS RED LIGHTSABER HE'S EVUL!
Palpatine actually got a lot of nice backstory and motivation in the EU that is never seen or addressed in the movies. I still don't think Vader deserved redemption because he murdered children. That's (along with rape) one of the biggest unforgivable crimes a person can commit.
Post by
Monday
Not to mention that the 501st weren't introduced until SW Battlefront 2 >.>
Post by
Berronaxwins
Yeah i think what it comes down to is, most people as a player could forgive him.. but i dont think anybody could forgive him if they lived in wow.
Post by
Rankkor
Yeah i think what it comes down to is, most people as a player could forgive him.. but i dont think anybody could forgive him if they lived in wow.
Not quite. Even as a player I can't forgive his actions. However, I still love him as a villain. While I feel his actions were monstrous, he was a BADASS and actually scary villain, with an interesting story, that pulled you in, and left you wanting more.
I guess a better way to phrase it would be: I can't forgive his actions neither from an outside point of view(player) nor from an inside point of view (citizen of Lordaeron/Dalaran/Silvermoon/Any other realm that suffered at his hands). HOWEVER, as a player I really loved him as a villain, and hated what WOTLK turned him into. ( a very crappy, and incompetent bond villain. Pure bark with zero bite)
Post by
Lordplatypus
That's (along with rape) one of the biggest unforgivable crimes a person can commit.
Worse than writing twilight?
I disagree, but that's personal opinion for you =/
Her using a bow could be part of it considering how many times i've been kited across a BG by some hunter.
The main problem i have with her is that she's supposed to be "Free" from the scourge, instead, she's just making one, just one difference. Where Arthas actually cared for his troops (one of the first times you see this is during the second frozen throne mission.)
SW Battlefront 2
Yes, the most badass of clones added in the same game where often a player's greatest foe is his own team. STOP SPAMMING GRENADES AND RUNNING INTO THEM DAMNIT.
IF you truly believe Vader deserved redemption because he cared for his troops, then you "should" feel the same about grom because he too cared a lot for his clan, and was the only chieftain who managed to keep his people away from internment camps besides the reclusive frostwolves who never fought in the war in the first place.
The reason i can't bring myself to forgive grom is simple.
The guy's too F***ing stupid. I mean seriously, when someone tells you THIS POOL IS DEMON MAGIC. you don't drink it.
That and his uncontrollable bloodlust even after he stopped doing
drugs
demon blood.
insanity is a poor excuse for murder.
Our legal system disagrees.
The reason i think he view's kel thuzad (I'll call him kelly for short, heh, kelly) is actually one of his lines in the second mission of WC3:TFT (Known as World of Warcraft: Heroes of Azeroth to anyone fooled by that hillarious april fools gag) Aka. Flight from lordaeron, where The Dreadlords and Slyvannas !@#$%runner both gather splinter factions of undead.
some of the lines shown here.
King Arthas
: "I would not leave my subjects to be slaughtered by this rabble."
Later !@#$%runner's traitor banshees mislead arthas into a trap, letting his trust of his "Subjects" work against him.
then this line
King Arthas
-
You have been a loyal friend, Kel'Thuzad.
I don't know what the future holds, or if I'll even return, but I want you to watch over this land. See to it that my legacy endures.
He then leaves for lordaeron and has Kel'Thuzad lead the loyalist undead as a regent for until return.
The rest, as they say, Is history.
AKA: Arthas fights naga and belf forces while moving to the frozen throne, ending in him wtfpwning Emo-lord Illidan
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Worse than writing twilight?
Yes, much worse. Killing Children, and Rape, put any person in the "they're not human anymore" category, you can imagine what I feel about those who do both.
The main problem i have with her is that she's supposed to be "Free" from the scourge, instead, she's just making one, just one difference. Where Arthas actually cared for his troops (one of the first times you see this is during the second frozen throne mission.)
well first off, that's recent. Sylvannas during most of war3 and vanilla/tbc/WOTLK was not spreading undeath, the blight only killed, it did not reanimated anyone else.
And second, I'm not sure why do you say sylvannas doesn't care for her people, as the quests seem to indicate otherwise. When the Lich King died, she leaped from the frozen throne because she felt she had no more reasons to live for, but as of now, she feels her new reason to live is precisely her people and this is why she's been so aggresively pushing to expand and fortify her borders (way too aggressive actually :S)
During the Campaign in Gilneas and Silverpine, she leads from the front, as an example to her people rather than send animals and watch from afar (such as Garrosh) or simply send troops and watch from afar (every other leader). On Gilneas, Silverpine, and even Andorhal she's there at the frontlines to inspire and make sure nothing goes wrong (and pays the price at the end of the silverpine campaign when she takes a shotgun blast to the head, which is why she was incognito on Andorhal)
During the Silverpine campaign, after Ivar Bloodfang ambushes you on the mine, and uses his bombs to take out a full batallion, she's FURIOUS about it as these were among her most loyal and oldest veterans with whom she had shared many battles. And one of the reasons she chose to do something extreme (Kidnap Crowley's daughter to force him to surrender) was to avoid unnecesary casualties on her end.
Of course lets not sugarcoat it, she didn't care one bit if she massacred all the worgens, they're insignificant to her, and also useless to her since her valks can't rezz them, and their forces DID had them backed up into a corner, and could had won that battle without extorsion, but doing so would had taken a toll on her forces, so she resorted to extorsion to force Crowley to surrender, and diminish the number of casualties on her own end. Someone who sees her people as disposable pawns would not had done that, and would had instead go "meh, what do I care if my troops die? my valks can rezz more, press the attack and kill every last worgen"
Disagree all you want with her methods (I disagree with them too, a lot) but her motivations are first and foremost to her subjects, and there is one major difference between her and the lich king:
The Lich King raised all the undead bound to his will. Any forsaken resurrected has the choice to join, or not. And if they don't join, they are allowed to walk away unharmed.
I feel that I must state this again (as I don't really like to be accused of bias, Sure, I'm pro-horde, but that doesn't mean I'll justify EVERYTHING they do, and decry EVERYTHING the alliance do. There's times when the alliance is in the right, and the horde is in the wrong, which is why I consider both sides to be morally gray):
THE FORSAKEN HAVE NO RIGHT TO SPREAD THEIR CONDITION TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.
While I believe they have a right to exist, that they shouldn't be killed just for being undead, and they have a right to keep the kingdom of which they are citizens, this doesn't give them the right to spread what is basically a curse, onto everyone else (Sylvannas herself says it, one of her lines is "what are we if not slaves to this torment?" and "What joy is there in this curse" so she knows being undead SUCKS)
The reason i can't bring myself to forgive grom is simple.
The guy's too F***ing stupid. I mean seriously, when someone tells you THIS POOL IS DEMON MAGIC. you don't drink it.
That and his uncontrollable bloodlust even after he stopped doing drugs demon blood.
Grom is actually depicted FAR MORE favorably in the books than in the game. I too used to dislike him a lot on war3 (and had a gigantic facepalm when he drank from the pool) and my reaction to his death was "wow, about time he did something useful" But in the books (namely Beyond the Dark Portal, and SPECIALLY Lord of the Clans) we get to see a much better, badass, cunning, and benevolent side of him. He is specially regretful of the barbarism he committed in the draenei wars, and the guilt torments him day and night.
He is also depicted as incredibly astute, cunning, and a master strategist (Do remember that this guy kept his people safe, and alive, and uncaptured in an entire continent full of about 10 kingdoms that wanted every orc dead on the spot, he managed to avoid capture for 20 frikking years. Doing that only for yourself like Eitrigg did is hard enough. Doing that for an entire CLAN is pretty damned impressive)
On the game, we only get to see his more stupid side (the one his son took apparently) And since for me Book > Game, you can imagine which characterization I favor more. On the terms of forgiveness Orcs should forgive him since he did regretted his actions terribly, and undid the damage he provoked. But he never earned forgiveness from the Humans or SPECIALLY the draenei, because while he was sorry about what he did, he never did anything to mend the fence.
Regarding the rest of what you said about Arthas: All of that is null when you remember that HE KILLED THEM. What he is doing is essentially what Sylvannas is doing. He killed them against their will due to a twisted belief that its "for the better". But whereas Sylvannas actually gave her newly risen forsaken the choice to join or not, Arthas (and the Lich King) didn't and anyone raised was a slave, whether they wanted to or not.
IF you hate so much what sylvannas is doing with the valks (and you should, as its indeed despicable) you SHOULD hate what arthas did with his kingdom and his neighboring friends and allies.
I don't determine whether or not one should be forgiven or deserves punishment (such as death) by their actions, I determine it based on whether or not they feel remorse for their actions and want to be better people. I don't think a truly evil person is capable of remorse, only good people can feel remorse. So if someone murdered another person for an unjustifiable reason, then felt bad about it, for that reason alone, I wouldn't think they deserve to die. If they did it without remorse, however, should no longer be allowed to live.
And that's assuming that they understand what they did was wrong.
This is why I let go of my hate of Grom. After I read Lord of the Clans I saw just how wracked with guilt he was for what he did. Saurfang was the same, he probably killed more draenei and humans than plenty of orcs combined, but after the blood haze was lifted by grom, desperation sank in once they fully realized what they had done, and I would not be surprised if many veteran orcs from the first and second wars committed suicide due to it. The majority of the orcs (I say majority because most of the blackrocks under Rend are not repentant) resented their actions a lot.
Also, please platypus cut down the profanity will ya? I hate silvannas too but you don't see me calling her b***runner, nor do I call the other racial leaders I dislike with profanity-laced terms.
Post by
Lordplatypus
And second, I'm not sure why do you say sylvannas doesn't care for her people, as the quests seem to indicate otherwise. When the Lich King died, she leaped from the frozen throne because she felt she had no more reasons to live for, but as of now, she feels her new reason to live is precisely her people and this is why she's been so aggresively pushing to expand and fortify her borders (way too aggressive actually :S)
She doesn't, they are tools, she doesn't waste them because now it's different.
They aren't arrows to be fired, they're a bulwark against the fate her actions have condemned her to. She wants to live longer, and to do so, she needs things to serve her.
IF you hate so much what sylvannas is doing with the valks (and you should, as its indeed despicable) you SHOULD hate what arthas did with his kingdom and his neighboring friends and allies.
no.
Just no.
Arthas wasn't himself when he did it was he? He was driven mad, it's more or lesss stated he was.
Slyvannas still had enough wits about her to want to commit suicide, the coward's way out. But she regretted it now that she knew what her near-fascist actions have turned her new afterlife into.
Arthas didn't do what he saw as a curse, and he cared for his servants. Slyvannas only uses them as "Bulwarks" theres no emotional bond. Arthas prooves over and over, despite being the lich king, he is still human.
The difference between arthas and slyvannas is like Vader, who had redeeming traits, vs. Sideous, a complete monster.
Post by
Adamsm
Arthas prooves over and over, despite being the lich king, he is still human.Right...except for all that sacrificing his forces all over the place(Wrath), cold blooded torture(WC3 and Wrath), and mass murder(WC3) of course....
Post by
Rankkor
She doesn't, they are tools, she doesn't waste them because now it's different.
They aren't arrows to be fired, they're a bulwark against the fate her actions have condemned her to. She wants to live longer, and to do so, she needs things to serve her.
That's your way to see it but not what the game shows us.
If the game has her saying "Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken, now and forever" and "I want a brighter future for my people" its your choice to believe it, or to automatically asume they're lying because you don't like them
I don't do that, as much pro-horde as I am, I don't automatically assume malice on a character just because I dislike them. I H-A-T-E varian, but when he says he loves his son, I believe him. When he says he wants what is best for his people (even if Westfall shows his methods needs LOTS of improvements) I still believe him.
You can see when a leader cares for their people by the way they treat them, and Sylvannas at no point mistreats her people, she treats them with respect, fights at their side, and gets FURIOUS when someone kills them. That doesn't seem like the traits of someone who sees them as disposable tools. If you wanna believe otherwise, be my guest, but the game shows strong evidence that for all her flaws (and my god, she has many) she loves her people.
IF you hate so much what sylvannas is doing with the valks (and you should, as its indeed despicable) you SHOULD hate what arthas did with his kingdom and his neighboring friends and allies.
no.
Just no.
Arthas wasn't himself when he did it was he? He was driven mad, it's more or lesss stated he was.
And Sylvannas wasn't? dude, she was a hero of the alliance, who was forced to see her land invaded (much like arthas saw his own kingdom succumbing to an evil cult, and a deadly outbreak) She was slain and then forced to watch helplessly as a puppeteer forced her to kill her people (For whom she fougth tooth and nail, if the books "Tides of Darkness" and "Beyond the Dark Portal" taught us is that the Windrunner sisters, all 3 of them, take the defense of quel'thalas VERY SERIOUSLY)
She was submitted to constant torture by Arthas, who ripped her ghost from her body, and then made her watch as her own body was desecrated over and over.
Then she finally breaks free, and finds herself a monster, who can never feel the warm touch or all the pleasures that life offers.
You tell me you could go through ALL OF THAT and not go insane. Go on. I dare you. If you were a general in the US army, and you had your men with whom you have lived, and fought for years, and then some enemy of the US implants a chip on your brain that allows them to control your actions while you helplessly can only watch, and then these enemies use your body to kill every single one of your men, and lead an enemy army to destroy your own country, WOULD YOU STAY SANE? Come on, don't try to pretend you woudln't. Nobody could go through that without a few screws off. Look at Jaina, THE most pacifist human in azeroth, she saw her city destroyed, even though nobody mind-controlled her to do the deed, and look how unstable, and crazy she's become.
Now imagine what Sylvannas (And indeed, every forsaken and knight of the ebon blade) had to go through. They are by far the most tragic victims of azeroth. I just can't understand why would you have so much sympathy for one, and then for someone who went through the same you have nothing but scorching hate.
Ditto for your unreasonable hate of the elves, when in reality Gilneas did far worse, and Kul Tiras did little better, yet you don't seem to hate either of them.
Slyvannas still had enough wits about her to want to commit suicide, the coward's way out. But she regretted it now that she knew what her near-fascist actions have turned her new afterlife into.
Ahh so now she's a coward for wanting to commit suicide? dude, again, put yourself in her shoes: You are a rotting corpse, your own family (what little is there of it anyways) hates you and has disowned you. The rest of the world fears you and wants to see you dead, your only motivation to stay alive was to make the one who put you into this situation pay, and now that's done. IF you have no motivation to stay alive, and plenty of reasons for wanting to die, how can you be called a coward?
Arthas didn't do what he saw as a curse
, and he cared for his servants. Slyvannas only uses them as "Bulwarks" theres no emotional bond. Arthas prooves over and over, despite being the lich king, he is still human.
Even if he didn't saw what he did as a curse, it doesnt' change the fact that....... well......... ITS STILL A CURSE. Dude how many times must I tell you, HE KILLED PEOPLE, children even. How can you let that slide so easily? its bonkers.
The difference between arthas and slyvannas is like Vader, who had redeeming traits, vs. Sideous, a complete monster.
No, the problem is you refuse to look at the redeeming qualities in Sylvannas. Such as how despite their rejection of her,
she still loves her sisters
, or how despite having the worgens by the throat, she allowed them to walk away after they fullfilled their end of the bargain. I mean really, a truly villanous person, just to be an evil prick, would had killed the worgens after they agreed to lay down their weapons. it would had been pragmatic too, since that's less enemies assaulting your lands. Instead, she chose to stay true to her word and let them go.
But of course, none of these matter to you, you hate her, therefore there has to be an evil, and wholly selfish cruel reason behind it all.
/frowns.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Actually, rank, it was said in the Sylvanas short story that she doesn't give two craps about her forsaken people, that they were just "arrows in the quiver" to be used against Arthas (she's even described to be disgusted by them) and now they're her "bulwark against the infinite to be used wisely", to protect her from the black hell she's doomed to go to. In other words, they're tools for her usage. Interestingly, she's also described as having the same mentality towards her high elven people back when she was alive.
are you sure? o_O damn, one of these days I swear I'll have to read those short stories........ its just that they're so frikking boring. And pointless if I may add. I was half-snoring through the one of Garrosh and Baine.
I find it hard to believe about her feeling the same way about her high elven people back when she was alive though. The 3 windrunner sisters were as high-patriotic as you can get without being an ultra-nationalist.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah...but at the end of the story she's supposedly had a change of heart and no longer thinks of them like that; now they are the people who will help her from dying again, so she needs to stop treating them like disposable trash.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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