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Could You Forgive Arthas?
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Post by
Behelich
About owning up to his mistakes - that's the point I'm trying to make there, rank. When Arthas was sabotaging the war effort of the Scourge - and given that he showed himself to be a nothing short of brilliant war mastermind during his race to the Frozen Throne against Illidan, winning while having inferior numbers, his actions during Wrath can be either that or completely out-of-character incompetence - he could not help but realize that, as he holds back the undead, he dooms himself. Even the idea of peace between the Scourge and the living is ridiculous (or, at the very least, it was before Bolvar. Time will tell whether or not the former regent of Stormwind will fall to darkness) and in the end, too many people wanted him dead for crimes he had committed.
Despite all that, Arthas let himself be killed and is now facing a very real hell - one he must have known about, since after all he was the master of val'kyr, their Death God. He knowingly condemned himself to eternal suffering so that the Scourge could be brought down.
Of course, once again I'll say that all of the above is only true if we accept what Blizz told us in the end of Wrath - there was a sliver of good left in Arthas.
Edit: it's just like you said, once he regained compassion, the capability to discern good from evil that was taken from him when he first picked up Frostmourne, he rebelled against what he had become, knowing it would mean his end but still trying to make up for his crimes.
Post by
Rankkor
Of course, once again I'll say that all of the above is only true if we accept what Blizz told us in the end of Wrath - there was a sliver of good left in Arthas.
Of course, here's where I take my stance, based on what blizz said:
Many times, what happens in the games, will CLASH violently with what happens in the books, and when we try to discern which is canon, the books take precedence to the game.
Few examples:
The appointing of Kalecgos as the new Aspect of Magic. Happens wildly differently in the game than it did in the book as I mentioned
here.
We get 2 completely counteracting events, which one do we pay attention and consider canon? The one on the book of course.
The pre-cataclysm events, including the elemental attack on orgrimmar, the appointment of Garrosh as warchief, and a few more things. Ingame, they were wildly different than in the novel. Canon version is the novel.
Now here, we get the same conundrum, we get a book telling us that he discarded all remnants of his humanity, and was pure concentrated unrepentant evil, and a game with a plot-twist out of frikking NOWHERE telling us that a teeny-tiny sliver of his previous self was holding back the rest of the lich king from going all out on azeroth.
Which one should we believe? I'd go for the books. When in doubt, always go to the book.
Edit: Ya know, and since this sliver of good from arthas is never mentioned, nor addressed again, EVER, anywhere at all, its veracity is questionable at best.
Post by
Behelich
I'll say we better hold back the judgment until we get an explicit answer from the Blizz on the topic. I'd just like to point out that, since Golden finished her book in July 2008, and patch 3.3 came out in December 2009, it is entirely possible the book was retconned.
Post by
Rankkor
I'll say we better hold back the judgment until we get an explicit answer from the Blizz on the topic.
Like that will ever happen. (Its not impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it, their stance on just WHAT was the lich king, who was in control of who, and what is true or not is muddy, always has been, and always will be. They like it leaving it ambiguous because it fosters discussions like this, where there are no clear answers. The one thing that is permanent and unchanging is that Book > Game)
I'd just like to point out that, since Golden finished her book in July 2008, and patch 3.3 came out in December 2009, it is entirely possible the book was retconned.
I've seen GAMES retconned, but books? never.
The Shattering book, and the Twilight of the Aspects book also came out before their events happened in the game (in the case of twilight a full 4 months before) and they're still canon above the game.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Honestly, the entire plot was to corrupt Arthas anyways....and the fact that Arthas ran full tilt into it, shows he didn't really care: His desire to be right and prove that he is the best choice to take over the Crown for Lordaeron led a lot of his choices, and a selfish little brat like that deserved what he got...sadly though, he ended up destroying his family and homeland because of it.
So yeah, burn for all time in the Pit Arthas.
Post by
Gumballs
It seems really difficult for L&RPers to have civilized discussions - it always turns into flaming and attacks. :(
For me, I love Arthas. I fell in love with him in the books, and I will always be an Arthas fangirl. I think it's absolutely fascinating the struggle he went through in his head, and his corruption from little golden boy into the monster he became. Loove my bad boys <3
But if I was living in the WoW universe, I would never be able to forgive him. He killed thousands of not only elves, but his own people. It doesn't matter how justified his actions at Stratholme were, could you honestly forgive a man for killing your friends and family? I couldn't. Arthas will never be redeemed, or forgiven. He's a monster, plain and simple.
Post by
morginar
It seems really difficult for L&RPers to have civilized discussions - it always turns into flaming and attacks..
Indeed, possibly related to the topics as of late?
Edit: to the topic of forgiving Arthas, does dancing on his grave count?
Post by
Behelich
Honestly, the entire plot was to corrupt Arthas anyways....and the fact that Arthas ran full tilt into it, shows he didn't really care: His desire to be right and prove that he is the best choice to take over the Crown for Lordaeron led a lot of his choices, and a selfish little brat like that deserved what he got...sadly though, he ended up destroying his family and homeland because of it.
So yeah, burn for all time in the Pit Arthas.
Arthas was hardly the whiny brat you call him, Adams. He had flaws, sure, but not what you depict him as. You reference the book so much; have you played the game?
He cared about his people, and he did what he believed was right for them. Now, he was mistaken, yes, but to say that he did all that only because to satisfy his own whims is kinda biased, eh? And I'll say it again - if only Uther behaved like a grown-up and not pretty much mirrored Arthas's fit of rage, maybe the whole catastrophe could have been averted.
Post by
Adamsm
However Alu; the Books are the most recent interpretation of the Lore. But the fact is though, Arthas fell hook line and sinker for the Legion and the Lich King's plot, because of his overwhelming need to be right; saw that very clearly at Stratholme, where in a fit of rage he disbands the Silver Hand because they don't go along with his plan, be it necessary or not.
And as soon as he gains 'ultimate' power what did he do? Go back to Lordareon and kill his father to finally be the King he felt his kingdom needed; oh yeah, no complex at all there.
Edit: He wasn't a tragic figure, he was just a man with flaws who did really stupid things and deserves to take full responsibility for them: After all, if he hadn't been such a sadistic bastard, Sylvanas wouldn't be what she is today, Jaina wouldn't be a wreck, the Silver Hand wouldn't have been decimated, Saurfang the Younger might possibly still be alive and all of those thousand of people wouldn't have died like they did.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Didn't he feel bad about killing his dad? I think I heard that in the book he felt remorse but felt that it had to be done. Never read the book myself tho.
Nope; he felt joy that he finally got what he wanted, which was to prove the Old Man that he was the better King...yeah that lasted long /roll eyes
Post by
Behelich
However Alu; the Books are the most recent interpretation of the Lore. But the fact is though, Arthas fell hook line and sinker for the Legion and the Lich King's plot, because of his overwhelming need to be right; saw that very clearly at Stratholme, where in a fit of rage he disbands the Silver Hand because they don't go along with his plan, be it necessary or not.
And as soon as he gains 'ultimate' power what did he do? Go back to Lordareon and kill his father to finally be the King he felt his kingdom needed; oh yeah, no complex at all there.
Again, why did Uther not even try to talk him out of it?
"You've just crossed a terrible threshold, Arthas," he says and POOF! he's gone just like that.
We get it Adams, you don't like, quote little brat unquote Arthas and quote emo king unquote Illidan. But is it really necessary to heap insults on them?
Post by
Adamsm
Why not? People seem to think it's fine to heap insults on Rhonin, Krasus and Knaak.
And Uther realized there was no way to talk him out of it; Arthas makes that incredibly clear in his little speech, no matter what the medium is.
Post by
Rankkor
It seems really difficult for L&RPers to have civilized discussions - it always turns into flaming and attacks. :(
It happens when someone is both uncompromising, and at the same time unwilling to back up claims. =/ nothing to be done except endure the storm.
For me, I love Arthas. I fell in love with him in the books, and I will always be an Arthas fangirl. I think it's absolutely fascinating the struggle he went through in his head, and his corruption from little golden boy into the monster he became. Loove my bad boys <3
I can identify, trust me, I'm a HUGE fan of Sarah Kerrigan from Starcraft, even though she's obviously evil, and has done horrible things, and if I actually lived in the starcraft universe, I'd never be able to forgive the many lives she's taken (and she's taken LOTS). But as an outside observer, I'm fascinated by her as a villain, and thoroughly consider her to be one of the most interesting characters in fiction.
Same goes for another villain from another game, Logain from Dragon Age. Most well fleshed out villain ever made.
I consider The Joker from Batman to be the best villain ever, huge fan of him, but only because I'm aware he's fake, if the joker was real, and was standing in front of me, I'd likely slug him in the face. (I'd likely die too, only the Goddamned Batman can take on the joker and win, but its the thought that matters doesn't it?)
But if I was living in the WoW universe, I would never be able to forgive him. He killed thousands of not only elves, but his own people. It doesn't matter how justified his actions at Stratholme were, could you honestly forgive a man for killing your friends and family? I couldn't. Arthas will never be redeemed, or forgiven. He's a monster, plain and simple.
Precisely. Its one thing to (as an outside observer of a work of fiction) to be fascinated and attracted to a well developed villain (which arthas in war3 was, in WOTLK......... not so much) and another to think we could just forgive and let it slide all the things they commit.
For all the fans Sephiroth has in Final Fantasy, I bet none of them would love him that much if they actually lived in Midgar. Same for all the many many MANY Loki fans from the Thor & Marvel franchise. (Dem eyes)
Also soldrethar............ did you just defended me? o_O times do change :P I really appreciate the gesture bro'. Also, out of simple curiosity, why are you using the icon of Sylvannas? I thought you hated her?
Honestly, the entire plot was to corrupt Arthas anyways....and the fact that Arthas ran full tilt into it, shows he didn't really care: His desire to be right and prove that he is the best choice to take over the Crown for Lordaeron led a lot of his choices, and a selfish little brat like that deserved what he got...sadly though, he ended up destroying his family and homeland because of it.
So yeah, burn for all time in the Pit Arthas.
Arthas was hardly the whiny brat you call him, Adams. He had flaws, sure, but not what you depict him as.
You reference the book so much; have you played the game?
As I said before, when it comes to lore, Book > Game. No exceptions. Also, if Uther had tried harder to instill reason into arthas, it would not had changed a thing. Arthas was as stubborn as a mule, once he sets his mind into something, nobody will make him change his mind. Its why he clashed so badly with Sylvannas, she was the only one as stubborn as him.
They would had made a GRRRREAT couple in an AU setting :P
Post by
Berronaxwins
Very nice posts UrAgahn, enjoyed reading them.
But if I was living in the WoW universe, I would never be able to forgive him. He killed thousands of not only elves, but his own people. It doesn't matter how justified his actions at Stratholme were, could you honestly forgive a man for killing your friends and family? I couldn't. Arthas will never be redeemed, or forgiven. He's a monster, plain and simple.
Yeah, thats how i feel. As a player i controleld him and watched over him doing these things, and the countless lives he slaughterd were only pixels to me, so i could forgive him as a player, but if i lived in that game, saw my friends.. my family, killed. i could not forgive him.. i just dont think i could find the capacity.
Post by
Behelich
Actually Rank, you pretty much quoted Kel'Thuzad there.
Kel'Thuzad
: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.
Arthas
: Shut
up
, you damned ghost.
Edit: you're very welcome, Berro.
I guess if I lived in Azeroth I would not be able to forgive Arthas as well, never mind how much I like him as a character (like it wasn't obvious). Though I still cling on to the idea it was possible for him to find redemption in death.
Post by
Adamsm
Considering his last words, I really doubt that...and I am incredibly happy about that.
Post by
Rankkor
Considering his last words, I really doubt that...and I am incredibly happy about that.
Yep, there is not much room for interpretation when he says "I see only darkness before me"
It makes me wonder if Grom Hellscream (who I see as a sort of parallel to arthas in SOME ways, not all of course) ever found his way to the other orcish ancestors, and if they forgave him for his actions seeing as he gave his life to undo his mistake. Of course, we don't have a clear idea of the sort of afterlife that awaits people in azeroth.
Post by
Adamsm
Since apparently Sylvanas saw that same darkness when she jumped off the Throne and came back for the second time; like I said, that just makes very happy knowing he'll be off somewhere for the rest of existence, rotting for all the things he did in his life...which almost almost makes up for the bull ^&*! about the 'good of Arthas holding back the Scourge', just to know he got his just desserts.
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