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No More "Don't Ask Don't Tell"
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Post by
Monday
Now, when you advocate gays in ANY situation where communal housing, showering, and sleeping are concerned, you are infringing on my right to privacy. You cannot logically argue that it is OK to house a gay man and a straight man together, unless you are OK with housing men and women together.
This was actually one of the main reasons why I was somewhat opposed to the repeal of DADT.
Gay people are gay whether they tell you or not.
However, there's a difference between knowing somebody is gay and changing with them and not knowing.
Post by
Jubilee
Wouldn't that be your problem, and shouldn't, therefore, any solution to that problem be at your expense not theirs?
Post by
xaratherus
Now, when you advocate gays in ANY situation where communal housing, showering, and sleeping are concerned, you are infringing on my right to privacy. You cannot logically argue that it is OK to house a gay man and a straight man together, unless you are OK with housing men and women together.
This was actually one of the main reasons why I was somewhat opposed to the repeal of DADT.
Gay people are gay whether they tell you or not.
Exactly.
DADT did
nothing
to change that situation, Funden. Gay men have literally served in our nation's military since - well, probably since our country's inception, but we have records of them at least back to World War I.
They were being housed with men then, and they were being housed with men all throughout the period that DADT was enforced.
However, there's a difference between knowing somebody is gay and changing with them and not knowing.
And that difference is what, exactly?
Post by
Monday
Do you really think it's my problem?
I'm more thinking of the other people here, as I don't really care either way.
E: Both of you are missing the point. There's a difference between knowing the person you're showering with/changing with is gay and is attracted to you, or not knowing at all and assuming you're with straight people.
Post by
xaratherus
Do you really think it's my problem?
I'm more thinking of the other people here, as I don't really care either way.
E: Both of you are missing the point. There's a difference between knowing the person you're showering with/changing with is gay and is attracted to you, or not knowing at all and assuming you're with straight people.
Well, first off, "is attracted to you" is something that you've just added to the equation. There are millions of men out there that I would have no desire to see naked.
But I don't see that I'm missing the point, because I don't see that the point has any validity or is a problem, save where the person who now knows that his showermate/roommate is gay
knows
that he's gay, and causes himself some sort of mental grief over it.
Let's look at the characteristics of the situation:
With DADT, a heterosexual man was showering with a gay man and didn't know it.
Without DADT, a heterosexual man is showering with a gay man, and might be aware he's gay.
The only difference? The knowledge of the heterosexual man. And in that instance, any problem that arises is in his mind; there's literally no place else it can be, because that's the only place in the scenario where a change occurred.
Post by
Jubilee
Do you really think it's my problem?
I'm more thinking of the other people here, as I don't really care either way.
E: Both of you are missing the point. There's a difference between knowing the person you're showering with/changing with is gay and is attracted to you, or not knowing at all and assuming you're with straight people.
There is a difference. The difference is your (I'm using you to stand for anyone in the position your argument addresses) discomfort at knowing something about someone else. The gay person is in no way responsible for that, and if you want a solution to that discomfort, it should come from your end.
Post by
MyTie
However, there's a difference between knowing somebody is gay and changing with them and not knowing.
And that difference is what, exactly?
Are you asking what the difference is between taking your clothes off in front of someone you know is attracted to your sex, and someone who you don't have reason to believe is?
Post by
MyTie
The gay person is in no way responsible for that, and if you want a solution to that discomfort, it should come from your end.
What kind of solution would you suggest?
Post by
xaratherus
Now, when you advocate gays in ANY situation where communal housing, showering, and sleeping are concerned, you are infringing on my right to privacy. You cannot logically argue that it is OK to house a gay man and a straight man together, unless you are OK with housing men and women together.
I don't have a problem with housing men and women together.
Again, I point out that the repeal of DADT does not change the situation you suggest to any great degree. Straight men were already being housed with gay men; heterosexual women were being housed with homosexual women.
The difference here is that,
if
that gay man or lesbian happens to mention the name of their partner/spouse in passing, they can no longer be discharged from the military for it.
And as I mentioned to Funden, if there is discomfort in a person's mind because their assumptive denial has been stripped away, that's their problem, not mine.
Are you asking what the difference is between taking your clothes off in front of someone you know is attracted to your sex, and someone who you don't have reason to believe is?
Yes - because to me, it makes no difference. I've stripped to my birthday suit in front of a woman who, I know with absolute certainty, would jump my bones if she knew that there was some slim possibility that I might swing back to the straight side.
Any difference in that case is still within the person who has been mentally denying the fact that they might have been naked around a person of the same sex who found them attractive. I cannot control the emotions of another person.
Post by
Jubilee
The gay person is in no way responsible for that, and if you want a solution to that discomfort, it should come from your end.
What kind of solution would you suggest?
That is all up to the person with the problem. I suggest therapy, but I'm not in a position to make that decision.
Post by
MyTie
The gay person is in no way responsible for that, and if you want a solution to that discomfort, it should come from your end.
What kind of solution would you suggest?
That is all up to the person with the problem. I suggest therapy, but I'm not in a position to make that decision.
I do not particularly want to take a hot shower with a gay man. I don't want to shower with any men, but if I was in the military, and had to shower with other people, I wouldn't want to shower with gay man. I don't want to be naked in front of people who may take an interest in my penis. I don't want to shower with women, either, as I am married. I would feel the same discomfort showering with women as I would gay men. My nudity is a very private thing. So, if I were in that position, as I am sure military men are, you are saying that I need therapy, as a solution to my problem?
Post by
Jubilee
That is all up to the person with the problem
. I
suggest
therapy, but
I'm not in a position to make that decision
.
Post by
Monday
That is all up to the person with the problem
. I
suggest
therapy, but
I'm not in a position to make that decision
.
I really think this is a stupid answer, tbh.
However, I'm not going to argue for either side, as it's not my problem.
Post by
Pwntiff
I don't know about the other branches, but the Navy has private showering stalls, even on board the more space-limited ships and submarines. The Army and Marines may have a different setup, especially in the field, however.
Post by
Magician22773
Now, when you advocate gays in ANY situation where communal housing, showering, and sleeping are concerned, you are infringing on my right to privacy. You cannot logically argue that it is OK to house a gay man and a straight man together, unless you are OK with housing men and women together.
I don't have a problem with housing men and women together.
Again, I point out that the repeal of DADT does not change the situation you suggest to any great degree. Straight men were already being housed with gay men; heterosexual women were being housed with homosexual women.
The difference here is that,
if
that gay man or lesbian happens to mention the name of their partner/spouse in passing, they can no longer be discharged from the military for it.
And as I mentioned to Funden, if there is discomfort in a person's mind because their assumptive denial has been stripped away, that's their problem, not mine.
Are you asking what the difference is between taking your clothes off in front of someone you know is attracted to your sex, and someone who you don't have reason to believe is?
Yes - because to me, it makes no difference. I've stripped to my birthday suit in front of a woman who, I know with absolute certainty, would jump my bones if she knew that there was some slim possibility that I might swing back to the straight side.
Any difference in that case is still within the person who has been mentally denying the fact that they might have been naked around a person of the same sex who found them attractive. I cannot control the emotions of another person.
No offence Xara, but you don't have a problem with housing men and women together because you are gay. That pretty much makes your point somewhat invalid.
As for the "you were showering with someone who might have been gay, just now you know he's gay" argument.
There "might" be a camera in the womens shower, but they still shower there. Tell them that there IS a camera in there, and see how many of them strip.
Again, as I said, this issue really can't be logically argued....I actually have a lot of respect for how Jubilee and Xara ARE able to debate on homosexuality, and usually have very good points....but here you both are just doing what everyone else does...dismissing it. So far, I can replace every point you have made using straight men / women, and it is still socially unacceptable to be placed in that position.
Post by
MyTie
That is all up to the person with the problem
. I
suggest
therapy, but
I'm not in a position to make that decision
.
Why is it the responsibility of the person with the problem? Why is it not the responsibility of the military to not place people in sexually charged showering situations?
Post by
pezz
Personally if I was in the military I'd be more concerned about getting blown up than having a gay guy see me naked. But then again I'm a total coward, and I also had my ass slapped at a gay bar last weekend, so I'm probably on the chiller end of the straight guy spectrum.
Post by
Jubilee
That is all up to the person with the problem
. I
suggest
therapy, but
I'm not in a position to make that decision
.
Why is it the responsibility of the person with the problem? Why is it not the responsibility of the military to not place people in sexually charged showering situations?
I never said it wasn't! Your arguments up to this point have already assumed that these situations exist. The military should absolutely make things as comfortable for everyone. If, however, there is a "situation" it's not the gay person's problem to deal with. The person with the problem to do whatever they need to do to deal with it. If that is to just ignore it, that's great, if that is to get rid of the inhibitions through cognitive therapy, that's great too.
Post by
MyTie
That is all up to the person with the problem
. I
suggest
therapy, but
I'm not in a position to make that decision
.
I really think this is a stupid answer, tbh.
However, I'm not going to argue for either side, as it's not my problem.
I still don't quite see myself as a 'side'. I think that both sides have their own unique problems. The anti homo side has a problem with getting past the homo side and dealing with individuals. Homos make equally great warriors as hetros. On the other hand, pro homos don't always see the logistical problems this can create.
There was a lesbian woman who was in the military unit I was in. She and I were friends. She and I are still Facebook friends, but not really too close. We were the two squadron physical training monitors, which means we administered the fitness examinations, which involved measuring people's waist lines without their shirts on. She did the girls, I did the boys. As the ranking training leader, I received a number of complaints from women who did not want to be in the same room with her without their shirts. I simply outsourced all the females testing to another squadron's female training leader. No one asked why, and so the problem was solved. However, this illustrates how problems can arise and people can be made uncomfortable with having gay people put their hands on their naked bodies.
Post by
MyTie
Your arguments up to this point have already assumed that these situations exist.
My arguments are not made from assumptions. I was in the military for 6 years, from 2000 to 2006. I knew of gay people in the military. I saw the situations it caused. You are assuming that my arguments are based on assumptions. Tsk tsk.
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