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Can of Worms: Should servicepeople get preferential treatment?
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Post by
324987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
As you can see from the downward trend of education in this country I find your statement of highly knowledgeable and certified individuals exaggerated.
The condescending tone and low level of respect given to public school teachers in general (lots of good evidence in this thread) is more likely a
cause
of this downward trend than a
symptom
. Gotta love the 'race to the bottom' mentality though.
Post by
xaratherus
viking and facesmasher both seem to indicate that they are still in school. Have fun when you hit the real world, guys. I remember thinking how I would "have it made" when I got a job making $35k a year; boy, was I **cking surprised to find out that $35k a year in most metropolitan areas leaves you just scraping by.
Needz moar condescension.
I'm somehow indicating that I'm superior to you when I blatantly stated that I felt the same way you did when I was in school? Not sure how that works. But I do find it an ironic statement, considering that it was preceded by a mention of the "downward trend of education"
Post by
324987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Magician22773
As for the Original Topic of this since derailed thread.....I voted yes, but in all cases, it has to be subjective.
If we are talking about traffic violations...are they driving 100mph for no reason, endangering others on the road...or did they get caught in a "revenue...err..speed trap" going 61 in a 55?
As for the current discussion about teachers. I feel that at one time, teachers did deserve a similar level of respect. Afterall, they were charged with educating our children. But somewhere between the "one-room schoolhouse" and today, that mission seems to has changed dramaticly. And I believe that point was when the majority of teachers unions were formed.
"Tenure", to me is a crazy concept. You let anyone in any profession know that they, for all practical purposes, cannot be fired, and theor performance is going to drop like a stone. I also see too many teachers today that believe their "authority" to be much higher than what it really is. They are there to teach, not to judge. And, as an adult, as a parent, I do not have any requirement to respect them as an authority figure. The truth is, I pay their salary though my taxes, and thus if any respect is due, it is from them to me.
While this opinion does not represent all teachers, sadly, I think it applies to too many of them. Out of every teacher my kids have had in our district, I would say that maybe 3 have earned their position, and at least twice that amount don't deserve their job at all.
Post by
Sweetscot
Let's all not forget that teachers have to keep going back to school, so they need those summer months for additional college classes, they also get paid more than say an office worker because it is HIGH STRESS.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Viking- of that 2 hours "off", one is a normal lunch hour, just like everyone else gets. The other is most likely spent on grading assignments, lesson plans, etc. There aren't any arcade machines in the teacher's lounge. And they still, I'm sure, have to grade papers when they go home at night, and on the weekends. I know teachers- they don't leave their work in the classroom. If they put in an extra 8 hours a week on grading tests, reading and correcting papers, preparing lessons, etc (say 1 hour a week night, and 3 over the course of a whole weekend, which seems to be what teachers I know do), then that would equate to an additional 288 hours over the course of the normal school year, which is equal to more than 7 extra weeks of work, out of the 8-10 that you complain that they don't do.
While 20% was a rough estimate, based on the fact that 2 months is approximately 20% of the year, teachers do work a 5 day work week, and for every holiday that they take off, many parents also have to take off in many instances because their kids need to be supervised. I personally get a good amount of paid holidays at my job, and snow days.
Second, out of a 40k salary, 7,360 is taken out for federal taxes, medicare and social security. If they live in a state with state income tax, which is most of them, they take out more. Lets use New York as an example, at 2,740 dollars. That leaves approximately 30k for the teacher to live on. That's 2,500/month. You should take a look in your area what it costs to rent a house, or what the average mortgage payments are on a decent sized property. And car payments, groceries, reasonable clothing purchases (remember they are required to have a decently professional wardrobe in most areas), utilities, etc. That is nowhere near a salary that allows for any kind of exorbitant lifestyle. In most cases, that's not even a salary that can support a household- if the teacher is married and/or has children, they definitely need 2 incomes to get by.
I'm not going to flame you, because I know you're young, and a lot of what people accept about the worth, importance and work done by teachers take perspective you don't have yet. All I can do is try and explain the numbers to you.
Post by
324987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Jubilee
$40,000 is a somewhat average income. Will you be able to buy whatever and live however you want? No. But it's enough to live on, to have a home, to eat, to raise your kids, and to have some fun. Most of America has near that to live on. I do share your sentiments, ElhonnaDS, that it would be a lot easier on people if they had a bit more than that. But having had to live frugally myself for some years, and having been raised in a low-income household, I know that $40,000 can support a small family. A lot of families are lucky to get $40,000 to $50,000 with both adults working.
Post by
Squishalot
viking, can you put together a budget on 40k a year? xaratherus's comments before weren't condescending, they're fact - once you get out, you'll realise that $40k isn't actually very much at all, depending on what part of the country you're living in.
With regards to grading essays, you have to consider that short-answer questions take as long as essays to grade (for equivalent assessments, e.g. 5 short answer vs 1 essay). Most science classes, history, geography, economics/commerce, legal studies, politics, philosophy, will have some significant sort of written component that can't be marked on the basis of the one-line final end answer. You're saying that Elhonna seems to think that every teacher grades essays, but it sounds like you seem to think that non-English teachers only grade maths!
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@ Viking
Also, if you scroll down you'll notice that when they break down the average income by education level, the average person with a 4-year degree earns somewhere around 66-68k. 40k is about 5k less than the average salary of someone who started but never finished college. So teachers make about 33% less than the average person with the same amount of time spent in college. Do you think 33% is worth a few extra holidays, then?
They already have a shortage of teachers in many low-income areas in my state because the pay is not worth what the job entails there. I'm not saying teachers are underpaid, and rallying for teachers rights. I'm saying that 40k is not an unreasonable salary, even for people with extra vacation time, when you consider the average income of someone with a 4-year degree, the work and money involved in getting the required degrees and certifications, and the fact that if the pay dropped lower, the pool of desirable candidates would be severely diminished and we'd be forced to accept teachers with less credentials/education and less of an ability to do the job. You get what you pay for.
@Jubilee
I know that you can raise a family with each parent pulling in 20-25k a year, but it's hard. It also is not the kind of salary one would expect for a job that requires a college degree. You don't spend thousands of dollars on college to qualify for a $10-12 per hour job. If this argument was "are phone bank operators overpaid" I wouldn't be complaining about the cost of living.
Post by
Jubilee
Why did you do the work to lay out $18.50 as a good hourly estimate above and then drop it down to $10-$12 in your reply to me? $18.50 seems quite reasonable to me for job requiring a college degree. My best friend's salary comes to about $19.50 when we figured it out last, and he works as GIS analyst for which he got a college degree.
Post by
Squishalot
I think the point is that you can say it's possible to survive and raise a family on any salary, but it's not great.
And $19.50 an hour is fine when you graduate, assuming that your college degree is going to result in you getting a $50/hr rate at some point in the future, not leave you stuck on $19.50 an hour forever.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Why did you do the work to lay out $18.50 as a good hourly estimate above and then drop it down to $10-$12 in your reply to me? $18.50 seems quite reasonable to me for job requiring a college degree. My best friend's salary comes to about $19.50 when we figured it out last, and he works as GIS analyst for which he got a college degree.
I broke down 40k a year, if you figured a 48 or 50 hour work week (forget which now) over 44 weeks to $18.50. That's how much teachers are making, based on the assumed 40k a year. It was to break it down to hourly pay rates which is something I think most people have a better working understanding of than annual income. My very point was, in fact, that $18.50 per working hour IS a very reasonable rate for someone with a degree, and not a hugely excessive one like viking is suggesting.
I figured 20-25k a year, as a 40 hour work week over 52 weeks, to 10-12 dollars. That's the hourly wage for your response that "a lot of families are lucky to get $40,000 to $50,000 with both adults working." I was pointing out that, while people do have salaries like that, it's not the kind of job that people need an college degree to get- hence the lower pay scale.
I was talking about two different things. The first was what teachers were making now, the second was what wages people were making that left them in a household where each parent was making 20-25k a year. I'm sorry if I confused people- I thought that I had indicated what statements I was responding to when I gave each of those figures.
Post by
deathbyte
@ Viking - Wait untill you get into the real world, and make it nowhere. plus, where do you live that teachers get this much time off during the day?
My aunt is an English teacher for AP classes, she is usually to work by 6 and never back to her house before 6. She does average more work then a office worker, so by saying they only work half the year, is wrong and very inaccurate. By the time you grade papers, make lesson plans, and meetings (which students get off of school for but teachers don't). It adds up to lot more than just 40 hrs/wk.
Post by
Jubilee
I think the point is that you can say it's possible to survive and raise a family on any salary, but it's not great.
That's almost exactly what I said what I said =P My overall point is that living on $40000 is not that uncommon, most especially for government jobs.
I figured 20-25k a year, as a 40 hour work week over 52 weeks, to 10-12 dollars. That's the hourly wage for your response that "a lot of families are lucky to get $40,000 to $50,000 with both adults working." I was pointing out that, while people do have salaries like that, it's not the kind of job that people need an college degree to get- hence the lower pay scale.
I was talking about two different things. The first was what teachers were making now, the second was what wages people were making that left them in a household where each parent was making 20-25k a year. I'm sorry if I confused people- I thought that I had indicated what statements I was responding to when I gave each of those figures.
Oh =/ I already knew that people getting paid that much generally don't have a degree. All I was doing was trying to show that $40000 is pretty normal.
Post by
324987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sweetscot
Maybe my school experience was different than yours but I got grades in every class. All teachers had to check every students work and grade it, not just the essays.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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