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Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
ExDementia
With or without religion, humanity would still be killing itself. The Towers would have fallen for another reason is all.
One less reason for war. One less reason for innocents to die. A big reason at that. You're saying, without religion, there would be the same amount of war and killing?
Post by
Adamsm
With or without religion, humanity would still be killing itself. The Towers would have fallen for another reason is all.
One less reason for war. One less reason for innocents to die. A big reason at that. You're saying, without religion, there would be the same amount of war and killing?
Honestly, yes. We've been killing each other since we've fallen out the trees after all.
After all, racism exists in people with no religious backgrounds.
Edit again: You are also taring every single religion with the same brush: Buddhism and Wicca don't preach war or conflict, as do other religions. Narrowness and bias, much exists all across the world.
Post by
ExDementia
With or without religion, humanity would still be killing itself. The Towers would have fallen for another reason is all.
One less reason for war. One less reason for innocents to die. A big reason at that. You're saying, without religion, there would be the same amount of war and killing?
Honestly, yes. We've been killing each other since we've fallen out the trees after all.
After all, racism exists in people with no religious backgrounds.
Well that is just ridiculous in my opinion. Religion is a huge cause of war. What other motive would Islamic terrorists have against America?
Edit again: You are also taring every single religion with the same brush: Buddhism and Wicca don't preach war or conflict, as do other religions. Narrowness and bias, much exists all across the world.
Ok well I'm not going to add in the caveat that I'm only talking about most main religions and a few others should be excluded because they are not the same. It is just implied.
Post by
HoleofArt
With or without religion, humanity would still be killing itself. The Towers would have fallen for another reason is all.
One less reason for war. One less reason for innocents to die. A big reason at that. You're saying, without religion, there would be the same amount of war and killing?
Honestly, yes. We've been killing each other since we've fallen out the trees after all.
Honestly, no. There would be less intolerance and hate between many societies. I can guarantee it. You know how organizations like al Queda gets support? Playing on the ignorance of the native people and claiming America is full of godless heathens.
And it does it in the name of religion.
That's one of the biggest conflicts in the world right now, and without that religious propaganda, many of it wouldn't exist.
Post by
Adamsm
What other motive would Islamic terrorists have against America?Money, greed, the fact that they are moving into their lands, helping the elite trod on the weak....
$%^&, let's be honest here: Look at the Superior race of World War 2; yes Jews were killed for being Jews, but so were the Gypsys, the Blacks, and anyone else who wasn't part of the grand Caucasian German race. Believe me, cast stones all you want at religion, but humans are just *!@#ed up that they would be killing each other for any reason, no matter how little it makes sense.
Call it what you want; Religion, Superiority complex whatever. Could still happen, and if there was no religion, well, they wouldn't be Islamic terrorists, they would just be terrorists causing fear and hate.
Edit again: You are also taring every single religion with the same brush: Buddhism and Wicca don't preach war or conflict, as do other religions. Narrowness and bias, much exists all across the world.
Ok well I'm not going to add in the caveat that I'm only talking about most main religions and a few others should be excluded because they are not the same. It is just implied.
But because of some extremists, all people with a belief in something should be seen as crazies right?
Honestly, no. There would be less intolerance and hate between many societies. I can guarantee it. You know how organizations like al Queda gets support? Playing on the ignorance of the native people and claiming America is full of godless heathens.
And it does it in the name of religion.
That's one of the biggest conflicts in the world right now, and without that religious propaganda, many of it wouldn't exist.
Sorry Hole, but that is bull; the Us vs Them has existed in Human nature forever. Getting rid of religion would do nothing at all.
Post by
ExDementia
What other motive would Islamic terrorists have against America?Money, greed, the fact that they are moving into their lands, helping the elite trod on the weak....
$%^&, let's be honest here: Look at the Superior race of World War 2; yes Jews were killed for being Jews, but so were the Gypsys, the Blacks, and anyone else who wasn't part of the grand Caucasian German race. Believe me, cast stones all you want at religion, but humans are just *!@#ed up that they would be killing each other for any reason, no matter how little it makes sense.
Call it what you want; Religion, Superiority complex whatever. Could still happen, and if there was no religion, well, they wouldn't be Islamic terrorists, they would just be terrorists causing fear and hate.
I firmly disagree. Also, yes, we agree that not all wars are started because of religion. You can stop repeating that now.
You are effectively saying that a people with less reasons to go to war (or none in many cases), will go to war anyway. That's like saying the holocaust would have still happened if Hitler wasn't racist.
Post by
HoleofArt
Honestly, no. There would be less intolerance and hate between many societies. I can guarantee it. You know how organizations like al Queda gets support? Playing on the ignorance of the native people and claiming America is full of godless heathens.
And it does it in the name of religion.
That's one of the biggest conflicts in the world right now, and without that religious propaganda, many of it wouldn't exist.
Sorry Hole, but that is bull; the Us vs Them has existed in Human nature forever. Getting rid of religion would do nothing at all.
And religion removes one main reason for Us vs. Them. Religion is an easy tool to use for support. What would organizations like al Queda do to get support without religion and playing on the native peoples ignorance? You seem to think there's a just as good alternative.
Post by
Adamsm
I firmly disagree. Also, yes, we agree that not all wars are started because of religion. You can stop repeating that now.
You are effectively saying that a people with less reasons to go to war (or none in many cases), will go to war anyway. That's like saying the holocaust would have still happened if Hitler wasn't racist.
Yes, he was a racist; and it would have happened whether or not he believed in a higher power. And sorry, but I don't believe in the goodness of humanity and that religion is a poison; humanity is the poison and has been for a long time. There are good ones sure, but not enough of them. Even the heroes can end up as just as bad.
And religion removes one main reason for Us vs. Them. Religion is an easy tool to use for support. What would organizations like al Queda do to get support without religion and playing on the native peoples ignorance? You seem to think there's a just as good alternative.
There is: He's rich, I'm poor. He's white, I'm brown. He's tall, I'm short. Same f-ing thing. And stupidity happens anyways, whether it's motivated by greed, patriotic furor, or what have you.
Edit: But in all honestly, all this topic throws off is the smug superiority of people who have 'figured it all out' over the ignorant bumpkins who 'cling to outdated ideas'. I love that Atheists and non-believers complain about religious people attacking them....but when it happens the other way around, it's like it's some grand evil thing.
Post by
ExDementia
I firmly disagree. Also, yes, we agree that not all wars are started because of religion. You can stop repeating that now.
You are effectively saying that a people with less reasons to go to war (or none in many cases), will go to war anyway. That's like saying the holocaust would have still happened if Hitler wasn't racist.
Yes, he was a racist; and it would have happened whether or not he believed in a higher power. And sorry, but I don't believe in the goodness of humanity and that religion is a poison; humanity is the poison and has been for a long time. There are good ones sure, but not enough of them. Even the heroes can end up as just as bad.
That is not at all what I said. I agreed with you and that people are #$%^ed up.
Re-read what I said about Hitler. You are saying that one factor won't change anything, and war would continue on as usual.
If Hitler wasn't racist, would the holocaust have happened?
Post by
Adamsm
If Hitler wasn't racist, would the holocaust have happened?Why not; happened before in the past.
Post by
ExDementia
If Hitler wasn't racist, would the holocaust have happened?Why not; happened before in the past.
So you are saying that if Hitler wasn't racist, he would have wanted to go out and exterminate 6 million people for some other reason? AND he would be able to get the support of a country behind him?
What would be the reason if race wasn't a factor? The color of their hair? Religion? The type of shoes they wear?
Post by
Gone
Like I said above, any war you can name that was based off of religion, or more specificly in the case of this thread Christianity, I can name ten that were based on race, land, politics, or just pure hatred.
No one said every war was because of religion. Yes there have been many, many wars started over other things, but our point is that there would be one less reason for needless killing. A BIG reason.
Thats true, but another big reason that people have for killing is race, if Hitler was sucesfull in wiping out all other races, than there would probobly be a lot less racialy motivated crimes today, that dosnt mean he was doing the right thing? (and no im not comparing atheists to hitler lol, just race to religion)
Religion also does a lot of good, there have been billions of dollars in charities raised, countless people clothed and fed. There have also been alchohalics and drug addicts who claimed that their religious faith have saved their lives from addiction.
Also I really dont like Skree bringing up 9/11, those were extremists, things like that only add to muslim hate which is already kind of a problem in the United States for the past few years.
Like I said above, any war you can name that was based off of religion, or more specificly in the case of this thread Christianity, I can name ten that were based on race, land, politics, or just pure hatred.
The
Muslim conquests
, the
Crusades
, the
French Wars of Religion
, and the
Reconquista
, the
Thirty Years War
, and the
Inquisition
.
Oh, and the Irish Troubles.
I think that means you can name nearly two hundred other wars.
The Irish troubles are half about religion half about land, trust me when I say nobody knows this better than me.
There have been over 170 major wars and conflicts in Africa just since the 1930s. This is one continent, in less than one century. Look back at history, the Roman conquests had nothing to do with religion, nor did either World War, nor the Cold War. The Civil war was one of the bloodiest wars in our nations history. I had a pretty long paragraph that I just deleted, suffice it to say there have been thousands upon thousands of wars in human hostory that have nothing to do with religion.
Post by
Adamsm
If Hitler wasn't racist, would the holocaust have happened?Why not; happened before in the past.
So you are saying that if Hitler wasn't racist, he would have wanted to go out and exterminate 6 million people for some other reason? AND he would be able to get the support of a country behind him?
What would be the reason if race wasn't a factor? The color of their hair? Religion? The type of shoes they wear?
Patriotic furor get's a lot of people to do things they would never consider doing before. And it still involves Us vs Them at it's most basic: Could even be something as simple as "The people of Jewish descent are the reason for the bad times; take all their stuff, and if they resist, kill them!" Greed is also a good motivator after all. And it's easy to blame everyone for the actions of a few bad apples(which is the entire point of this thread at this point).
Post by
ExDementia
If Hitler wasn't racist, would the holocaust have happened?Why not; happened before in the past.
So you are saying that if Hitler wasn't racist, he would have wanted to go out and exterminate 6 million people for some other reason? AND he would be able to get the support of a country behind him?
What would be the reason if race wasn't a factor? The color of their hair? Religion? The type of shoes they wear?
Patriotic furor get's a lot of people to do things they would never consider doing before. And it still involves Us vs Them at it's most basic: Could even be something as simple as
"The people of Jewish descent are the reason for the bad times; take all their stuff, and if they resist, kill them!"
Greed is also a good motivator after all. And it's easy to blame everyone for the actions of a few bad apples(which is the entire point of this thread at this point).
People of Jewish decent = Jews
That is still racism.
Post by
HoleofArt
There is: He's rich, I'm poor. He's white, I'm brown. He's tall, I'm short. Same f-ing thing. And stupidity happens anyways, whether it's motivated by greed, patriotic furor, or what have you.
You really think the common man in Afghanistan gives two %^&*s about any of those things? He's more concerned about having a roof over his head and food on the table. Religion plays on the propaganda. All the common man knows is that strange men are attacking his native people, and his native people are telling them that they're enemies of Islam -- and *gasp* we wouldn't even have been able to get enough public support to take such an aggressive stance in the Middle East if it wasn't for religion in the first place!
Not to mention religion is typically conservative, which completely hinders a state trying to grow like Afghanistan, when women are still primarily viewed as "inferior" and modern education and English is "evil".
Post by
Gone
There is: He's rich, I'm poor. He's white, I'm brown. He's tall, I'm short. Same f-ing thing. And stupidity happens anyways, whether it's motivated by greed, patriotic furor, or what have you.
You really think the common man in Afghanistan gives two %^&*s about any of those things? He's more concerned about having a roof over his head and food on the table. Religion plays on the propaganda. All the common man knows is that strange men are attacking his native people, and his native people are telling them that they're enemies of Islam -- and *gasp* we wouldn't even have been able to get enough public support to take such an aggressive stance in the Middle East if it wasn't for religion in the first place!
Not to mention religion is typically conservative, which completely hinders a state trying to grow like Afghanistan, when women are still primarily viewed as "inferior" and modern education and English is "evil".
Once again thats a very specific example. Do you think the thousands of peopel being butched in Africa over greed, race, and land give a #$%^ about some religion that they have never heard of?
Post by
HoleofArt
There is: He's rich, I'm poor. He's white, I'm brown. He's tall, I'm short. Same f-ing thing. And stupidity happens anyways, whether it's motivated by greed, patriotic furor, or what have you.
You really think the common man in Afghanistan gives two %^&*s about any of those things? He's more concerned about having a roof over his head and food on the table. Religion plays on the propaganda. All the common man knows is that strange men are attacking his native people, and his native people are telling them that they're enemies of Islam -- and *gasp* we wouldn't even have been able to get enough public support to take such an aggressive stance in the Middle East if it wasn't for religion in the first place!
Not to mention religion is typically conservative, which completely hinders a state trying to grow like Afghanistan, when women are still primarily viewed as "inferior" and modern education and English is "evil".
Once again thats a very specific example. Do you think the thousands of peopel being butched in Africa over greed, race, and land give a #$%^ about some religion that they have never heard of?
Oh hai, you seem to have ignored my other post.
A specific example? It's one the the largest current conflicts. It's totally relevant and works perfectly with my point. And I've never said that all wars are because of religion, I'm just stating that enough have been started because of religion to warrant it being brought up.
Post by
Gone
There is: He's rich, I'm poor. He's white, I'm brown. He's tall, I'm short. Same f-ing thing. And stupidity happens anyways, whether it's motivated by greed, patriotic furor, or what have you.
You really think the common man in Afghanistan gives two %^&*s about any of those things? He's more concerned about having a roof over his head and food on the table. Religion plays on the propaganda. All the common man knows is that strange men are attacking his native people, and his native people are telling them that they're enemies of Islam -- and *gasp* we wouldn't even have been able to get enough public support to take such an aggressive stance in the Middle East if it wasn't for religion in the first place!
Not to mention religion is typically conservative, which completely hinders a state trying to grow like Afghanistan, when women are still primarily viewed as "inferior" and modern education and English is "evil".
Once again thats a very specific example. Do you think the thousands of peopel being butched in Africa over greed, race, and land give a #$%^ about some religion that they have never heard of?
Oh hai, you seem to have ignored my other post.
A specific example? It's one the the largest current conflicts. It's totally relevant and works perfectly with my point. And I've never said that all wars are because of religion, I'm just stating that enough have been started because of religion to warrant it being brought up.
I ignored your first post because like I said I a lot of what you are saying is anti religious propaganda, You responded to my post claiming that at least most major conflicts are caused by relgion, and that simpley isnt true. Its just an excuse people use, read my post a few back. more than 170 wars have happened in Africa in the last 80 years, none of them had a thing to do with religion, neither do most major conflicts.
The point being that all of these wars would still happen absent religion.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually, thank you both ExDementia and HoleofArt for completely and utterly proving my point about the Us vs Them mentality.
Look, the fact is, well it's nice to lay all the problems at the feet of religion...it's a bad move; yes, extremists of the different religions have caused $%^&, pain and suffering all across the world....but a lot people just want to be left in peace without someone, whether they are a believer or not, getting their face and telling them they are wrong and idiots for believing/disbelieving.
I could care less that one of my neighbors is a member of Islam; the guy is the nicest person you'll ever meet. I've seen a complete and utter &*!@#$ during my days in high school, and the fact that he was a Christian meant nothing to his bullying and stupidity.
But meh, people find faults with every single thing out there, so carry on, carry on, cause nothing really matters, any way the wind blows. Enjoy the remainder of the 'discussion' or whatever you want to call it at this point.
Post by
donnymurph
I looked at this thread just to see the reference.
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