This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Horde: Graduating into full villainy?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Gnoktish
The horde has certainly done things you'd think could've been thought through more clearly than it was planned. Before the Cataclysm, there were sick dezians of Silverpine Forest trying to find a way into Gilneas' wall. The Horde volunteer was ordered to go kill the sick and weary refugees outside the wall. The same volunteer was also ordered in northrend to slaughter dying soldiers for one's failed mission to defeat the alliance. The alliance accepted their fate and asked the alliance hero to finish them so they would atleast be at peace before their body was transformed to scourge. As for the horde soldier was to simply "avenge" the failed warrior by killing dying soldiers of the oppisite faction.
The horde certainly has hit a low for they are issued to kill those of inevitable fate. They have shown no mercy to most when the oppisite shown it. Although most ignore Icecrown's event when alliance defeated Deathbringer Saurfang, they continue to kill the innocents. I can't feel that peace between factions are limited to a certain extent. Garrosh and Varian would have to be in a back-to-back life or death situation to get any chance of peace settled together.
We can only hope for some moral choices like the Alliance's Twilight Highlands quest: "
Anything we can get
" for the player of both factions. We are all at fault for we've have been set out to kill eachother. We don't get the choice to let that person live or not.
Post by
585087
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
RansackMoose
When I look at the role Garrosh plays, it seems more akin to Batman's role near the end of "The Dark Knight". You can think of all the ways he's shown how tactless he is, or how vicious he is in meeting his goals, but someone has to do it. The Horde's continued survival during this now open call of war against the Alliance, calls for him to make the decisions any normal leader couldn't come to make. An argument against this could obviously be that Thrall managed to handle affairs without resorting to the more extreme measures his successor has started to make. But you must also take into account that Thrall wasn't Warchief during open war. The conflicts that have arisen up until this point have been general faction hostility coupled with a struggle versus a common enemy. Now with the Shattering, general hostility has become open added on the the common threat that looms overhead. So to look at Garrosh as an evil, or simply bloodthirsty leader is to look at the issue with shallow eyes. He'll be the Horde's whipping boy for as long as they need him, because they'd fall otherwise. At least, as far as evidence can show right now.
TL;DR version - Garrosh can make the decisions us peons wouldn't be able to, and still be able to hold his head up when facing his maker.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
RansackMoose
The conflicts that have arisen up until this point have been general faction hostility coupled with a struggle versus a common enemy. Now with the Shattering, general hostility has become open added on the the common threat that looms overhead. So to look at Garrosh as an evil, or simply bloodthirsty leader is to look at the issue with shallow eyes. He'll be the Horde's whipping boy for as long as they need him, because they'd fall otherwise. At least, as far as evidence can show right now.
TL;DR version - Garrosh can make the decisions us peons wouldn't be able to, and still be able to hold his head up when facing his maker.
I'm normally of the opinion that Thrall isn't very good at waging outright war (let's face it, there's parallels to be made between Thrall and Liu Bei, if only in the way they keep running away), but to say that Garrosh is what the Horde must have isn't very smart. I do, however, agree with the opinion of "If not Garrosh, then who?" Saurfang is out of the question. He'd wage a war that's too defensive.
My beef with Garrosh is his dumbass tactics that's led to some heavy problems in Ashenvale and Southern Barrens. Sure, they pushed back the Elves, but they can't secure Ashenvale, and, well, Southern Barrens is pretty much lost.
So he's more like Bush than Batman? :D
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
The conflicts that have arisen up until this point have been general faction hostility coupled with a struggle versus a common enemy. Now with the Shattering, general hostility has become open added on the the common threat that looms overhead. So to look at Garrosh as an evil, or simply bloodthirsty leader is to look at the issue with shallow eyes. He'll be the Horde's whipping boy for as long as they need him, because they'd fall otherwise. At least, as far as evidence can show right now.
TL;DR version - Garrosh can make the decisions us peons wouldn't be able to, and still be able to hold his head up when facing his maker.
I'm normally of the opinion that Thrall isn't very good at waging outright war (let's face it, there's parallels to be made between Thrall and Liu Bei, if only in the way they keep running away), but to say that Garrosh is what the Horde must have isn't very smart. I do, however, agree with the opinion of "If not Garrosh, then who?" Saurfang is out of the question. He'd wage a war that's too defensive.
My beef with Garrosh is his dumbass tactics that's led to some heavy problems in Ashenvale and Southern Barrens. Sure, they pushed back the Elves, but they can't secure Ashenvale, and, well, Southern Barrens is pretty much lost.
First off, i think saurfang would have made a great warchief, to me he is to the horde the way Varian is to the alliance, he holds their respect, and while hes not going to go out and look for a fight, he isnt afraid to #$%^ up anybody that comes starts something.
I mean lets say that the Horde and the Alliance are about even in terms of military power. That alone makes starting a full on war, not a smart idea, add the fact that they also have Twilights hammer and Deathwing to deal with, not to mention the fact that Garrosh is also starting %^&* with neutral factions like Gilneaus (he had no way of knowing at that time that goblins would be joining the horde). Not to mention that unlike Thrall and Varian, he dosnt have the support of his people, the orcs may look at him like a hero, but look at the other races of the horde...
Tarun: Doubt they are too pleased with him after the whole debacle with Cairne, and i doubt their druid scociety would aprove of him tearing through ahsenvale
Trolls: Vol'jin personaly DESPISES Garrosh, and has threatened to kill him, Not sure how the rest of them feel, but i doubt they take kindly to being evicted from ogrimar, although they did get acho isles back so at least they can chill there
Orcs: Most of them look at Garrosh like a hero, but honestly the more resources he spends into fighting a war with the alliance, while still trying to defeat Deathwing, Twilights Hammer, and whoever he decids to pick a fight with, i dont see their loyalty standing
Goblins: Opritunistisc little things that they are i really dont think they give two !@#$s about the rest of the horde
Blood Elfs: I never got the feeling that Blood Elfs showed much respect to any of the rest of the horde, to them they seem like more of a means to an end
Forsaken: See Blood Elfs. That and Sylvanas clearly dosnt think much of Garrosh, and is constantly plotting shadey !@#$ behind his back
Honestly I think Saurfang, Vol'jin, or Cairne would have made a better leader than Garrosh
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Honestly I think Saurfang, Vol'jin, or Cairne would have made a better leader than Garrosh
Both Vol'jin and Cairne would have led to civil war. The Orcs would never have accepted a non-Orc warchief, and they have the numbers to stage a coup, as opposed to the Tauren or the Trolls.
Saurfang is grieving his son, which would have definitely dulled his leadership abilities, as well as his warrior's edge. Simply put, the Northrend campaign pretty much "killed" him.
I don't remember if it was fanfic or something canon, but there was talk that had he not died, Dranosh Saurfang would have been groomed for the position as opposed to Garrosh.
I dont think you give saurfang enough credit. He is old enough and has seen enough blood in his time that, while the loss of his son was a hard blow, it wouldnt dabilitate him the way you describe. I mean he has already lived with the haunting memories of the things he did when cursed by the demon blood, as well as losing his brother in War of the Ancients, killing children and such. His sons death hurt, but hes made of tougher stuff than that.
And even if it did, it would still be better to have a leader that held things in reserve, than one who is going to lead the horde to their deaths. One of the most reccuring themes during wotlk that
everyone
kept trying to drill into garroshes head, Thrall, Tirion, Saurfang, is that they can not defeat the Lich King if they are fighting with the alliance as well.
Now Deathwing is a bigger threat than the Lich King ever was, he already destroyed half of Azeroth when he burst from Deepholme. Not to mention we have the Twilight Hammer cult, elementals running wild, and we may even have an Old God on the loose now. Even if the Horde were at its strongest an all out war with the Alliance would probobly destroy both factions, which is why real leaders like Thrall and Varian were smart enough to avoid it.
Also you spoke of civil war, or a revolt if a Cairne or Vol'jin were made warchief, and that the orcs would never accept a non orc leader. The fact is that Garrosh is an orc leader and the horde have
not
accepted him, the trolls are ready to revolt, the forsaken are plotting things behind his back, the tarun on large seem none to pleased with him. The orcs are the only ones who have accepted him as a leader, and while they are the highest populated race of the horde, they are hardly the majority. Thrall commanded the respect and admiration of the tarun and trolls, and he was able to keep Sylvanas and the forsaken in line.
Post by
51581
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
What we tend to forget are the things that do not happen in game. The Garrosh in Cata is not the same as in Wrath. He's more patient, honorable and overall more fit to lead a nation than the military commander in Wrath. I urge y'all to read
these
two
articles about Garrosh. It explains Garrosh very well in my opinion. Perhaps it might even change your view about him. ;)
Idk dude, it seems like all these little backstorys and quests where he appears to learn compassion or some such %^&*, and all these hints about how Thrall has some secret reason for trusting him, is just blizz trying to get us to accept him, but it hasnt worked thus far, while a few people have come around, i wont, and i dont think the majority of people will, as far as im concerned he gots to go, even the people who like him seem to hold the opinion "yea hes great, but thrall was better"
In other news, the Vol'jin/Garrosh thing has been (mostly) resolved at lvl 5
Not really, Vol'jin still hates him, he just decided not to leave the horde
Vol'jin says: Thrall's words are true, as dey always be. The Horde is much more den a few old, stubborn leaders and a handful of heroes from Northrend. The people be cryin' Garrosh's name...
at least for now.
this seems to implie to me that Vol'jin still dosnt trust Garrosh, and is still predicting the rest of the horde turning against him, and hes not the only one
Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us!
High Overlord Saurfang shakes his head.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies...
High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You'd do well to match your tone, General. Neither you nor Garrosh have anything to worry about. We've ceased all production of the Plague, as he ordered. We'd never deploy it without his permission.
General Warhowl says: I will deliver my report to our leader, then. By your leave, my lady.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Go with honor, General.
High Executor Crenshaw says: My lady! Should I order my men to stop the deployment of the Plague? Or are we to continue as planned?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: What kind of question is that? Of course we are deploying the Plague as planned! Let the Gilneans enjoy their small victory. Not even their bones will remain by tomorrow.
High Executor Crenshaw says: As you wish!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Where is that ogre-headed buffoon?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Ah, speak of the devil ...
Vision of Vol'jin says: I know exactly what I'll be doin' about it, son of Hellscream. I'll be watchin' as ya people slowly become aware of ya ineptitude. I'll laugh as dey grow ta despise ya as I do.
Vision of Vol'jin says: And when tha time comes dat ya failure is complete and ya "power" is meaningless, I will be dere to end ya rule, swiftly and silently.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya will spend ya reign glancin' over ya shoulda and fearin' tha shadows, for when tha time comes and ya blood be slowly drainin' out, ya will know exactly who fired da arrow dat pierced ya heart.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: You have sealed your fate, troll.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream spits at Vol'jin's feet.
Vision of Vol'jin says: And you yours, "Warchief".
The fact is he holds neither the respect, nor the obidence of most of the horde, and his warmongering attitude is only going to lead to the destruction of the horde
I think out of all those quotes the one that stands out in my head the most is the one from saurfang, where he talks about Garrosh leading the horde down the same path that his father did, i could really see this happening, in recent years the horde have gone from a persecuted people merley trying to survive, to something much darker, slipping into their old ways more and more as time gos by, they need something jarring to snap them back to reality, like for instance Thrall comming back, or Saurfang/Vol'jin following through with their threat and killing him
Post by
51581
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Idk dude, it seems like all these little backstorys and quests where he appears to learn compassion or some such %^&*, and all these hints about how Thrall has some secret reason for trusting him, is just blizz trying to get us to accept him, but it hasnt worked thus far, while a few people have come around, i wont, and i dont think the majority of people will, as far as im concerned he gots to go, even the people who like him seem to hold the opinion "yea hes great, but thrall was better"
I think you forget that those back stories and little quests are the backbone of WoW lore. Blizzard isn;t trying to get us to like him, they're telling his story, developing him. I think they're doing a pretty great job. I was staunchly opposed when I heard Garrosh would be made Warchief in Cata. But when I saw the Silverpine and Stonetalon questlines and I read The Shattering, I came to think that Garrosh might not be such a screw-up after all.
In other news, the Vol'jin/Garrosh thing has been (mostly) resolved at lvl 5
Not really, Vol'jin still hates him, he just decided not to leave the horde
Vol'jin says: Thrall's words are true, as dey always be. The Horde is much more den a few old, stubborn leaders and a handful of heroes from Northrend. The people be cryin' Garrosh's name...
at least for now.
this seems to implie to me that Vol'jin still dosnt trust Garrosh, and is still predicting the rest of the horde turning against him, and hes not the only one
(---)
The fact is he holds neither the respect, nor the obidence of most of the horde, and his warmongering attitude is only going to lead to the destruction of the horde
I think out of all those quotes the one that stands out in my head the most is the one from saurfang, where he talks about Garrosh leading the horde down the same path that his father did, i could really see this happening, in recent years the horde have gone from a persecuted people merley trying to survive, to something much darker, slipping into their old ways more and more as time gos by, they need something jarring to snap them back to reality, like for instance Thrall comming back, or Saurfang/Vol'jin following through with their threat and killing him
Indeed, Vol'jin doesn't like Garrosh, but the trolls themselves get along with him fairly well. The tauren seem to respect him, as he's done his best to make amends for Cairne's murder. The Forsaken care not for the Horde's politics, and keep doing their own thing. I doubt that if Thrall was in charge, it would've been much different. Heck, I think Sylvanas could've actually convinced Thrall of the Val'Kyr's necessity.
Also, you've seem to taken the Saurfang quote out of context. During the time, it was the beginning of the Northrend invasion, and Saurfang was worried about Garrosh. He was worried that he would take the Horde back to the days of the War on the Draenei and First War, where they were mindless killing machines. Saurfang himself isn't opposed to war or bloodshed at all, as long as it is done
honorably
. I think he banged that lesson in Garrosh's head fairly well.
Well we each have our own opinions, and we could probobly debate this all night, who knows in the future i may just feel differently, i remember i used to think Varian was a gigantic tool, now hes one of my favorites. At the moment though i do not count myself among Garroshes fan club.
EDIT: Actualy now that i think about it, i think i relise why they are making the horde seem so sinister latley. I think its another way of accomodating new players, when wow first launched people who rolled horde did so because they fell in love with it during WC3, they werent the "bad" guys to the alliance "good" guys, both sides had good and evil in them, and long time players understood that. But latley most new players who join the game join either the horde or the alliance because they have a preconcieved notion that the horde are the baddies and the alliance are the heroes, and i feel liek blizzard is changing the horde to accomodate that
Post by
Adamsm
Thrall and Garrosh tells us that Saurfang is happy to 'retire' to Northrend in the Shattering, leading the clean up crews there; the guy has been fighting in wars for nearly his entire life, it's time for him to get some rest: Saurfang is nearly the same age as Drek'thar after all, and has fought in the same wars as the current leader of the Frost Wolves and gone through just as much.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Thrall and Garrosh tells us that Saurfang is happy to 'retire' to Northrend in the Shattering, leading the clean up crews there; the guy has been fighting in wars for nearly his entire life, it's time for him to get some rest: Saurfang is nearly the same age as Drek'thar after all, and has fought in the same wars as the current leader of the Frost Wolves and gone through just as much.
The only difference being that Saurfang still has working legs and isn't a shaman.Saurfang's legs are too afraid to go crippled on him. He'd beat them until they did what he wanted again.
Post by
Adamsm
The only difference being that Saurfang still has working legs and isn't a shaman.
Well that...and Drek lost his mind during the Nightmare War.
Saurfang's legs are too afraid to go crippled on him. He'd beat them until they did what he wanted again.
Oh noes......
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Wasn't aware of that one. From what I gather (wowpedia's article on Drek, citing the Shattering), people used to think him senile as his first vision missed the mark.
I'll chalk the "lost his mind" in the same way Saurfang is likely emotionally crippled from losing his son.
The whole senile thing started up after the events of the Nightmare War; both Warcraft: Shaman and the Shattering make reference to it.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.