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Hunters: Master of None AKA "The Cynical View on Hunter Utility"
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Post by
608
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Post by
Interest
Crippling Poison does
Deadly Brew. That is all.
Actually, I want to change that statement. You can apply poisons to your thrown weapon now. There's not exactly too many situations where the extra damage on a thrown are going to be significant in comparison to not having combo points for Deadly Throw and throwing a Crippling Poison-laced throwing knife to help close on your foe and kill them.
Post by
608
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Post by
608
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Post by
683852
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Post by
Interest
I play both hunter and mage, FWIW). In my opinion, it would make more sense if Disengage removed snare/slowing (but not stun), and Blink only teleports you forward.
Okay be to be honest I disagree. I would prefer if both did the same. I find that Blink in its current state is something that is quite useful and relied on by the Mage.
The teleport alone is quite useful, for one they disappear, unlike the hunter whom you see where leaps, and that's quite effective both on confusing the enemy as well as interrupting their spell casting.
Well actually, it's just an instantaneous leap forward. Mechanically, Disengage is just the Hunter flying backwards at a significantly slower rate and Blink is the Mage "leaping" forward within like 0.01 seconds with a few programming quirks (i.e. blinking to the bottom in a fall, blinking backwards). Well...that's what I heard anyways. The other difference is Blink can be used any time, but Disengage requires you to be in combat (not exactly a big deal, but it's worth noting it could make the difference).
Now here I actually like that it doesn't stop at edges, but I'm an engineer so I got a parachute.
=D. I have a parachute too.
As for the edge thing, I was joking.
As for PvE I agree that hunters in the right group got fairly impressive CC, 1 1/2 minute Freezing Trap, 30 second Wyvern, can trap multiple enemies at once, can have pet off-tank, can kite. Indeed, it's impressive, although our weakness here is that our CC also got long CD, if Trap/Wyvern break (something they seem to do surprisingly often in PuGs), we can't use it again for some time (and when Wyvern breaks you also ruin CC of other classes unless they've glyphed their CC abilities to remove DoTs). I'm not holding this against hunters though, merely mentioning that our CC also got limitations.
Well, one problem with that argument. Not every Hunter has Wyvern Sting, and even if the Hunter had a Tenacity pet on hand to off-tank (I've had my pet get crit to death otherwise with the "off-tank" idea), swapping pets then going from zero threat to holding aggro is a bit difficult (this makes the idea a bit tough for BM, who would benefit the most. The point is it's likely to take far too much time).
I understand the limitations, but I prefer that we do get a more reliable CC. Keep in mind that as I just said, not all Hunters have that second CC of Wyvern Sting to fall back on, or to use to CC 2 targets, and from what I recall, you can't Freezing Trap 2 targets at the same time.
Several other classes (mostly talking about pures) have something to fall back on. Mages can just Sheep the target again or blow a major cooldown like Ring of Frost to keep targets crowd controlled. Warlocks have a massive cluster@#$% of CCs to work with, and now that Fear is a CC worth using (thank you, Glyph of Fear. I love you so) and it breaks after a certain amount of damage Warlocks are even more useful in PvE for CC. Rogues are a bit limited in this regard. Sap breaking can result in a lot of issues, but Blind (with the glyph to remove DoTs) is a workable fallback and Rogues can also stun in any of their 3 specs and (god forbid if they get aggro), off-tank with Evasion for a short time. Blackjack prevents significant damage output to Sapped targets for a time as well, and is accessible by all Rogues (not sure if it's really viable though).
Oh also, I am aware certain dps hybrids are pretty lacking in the CC department (Warriors lol, Balance Druids are limited, Retribution Paladins, and so on)
Just dropping a trap at your feet and lure enemies onto them has proven to be a more successful strategy for myself.
To be honest that requires a bit of luck though. Pretty sure after years of PvP experience most players training a Hunter are going to think twice before going in a straight line after them.
Post by
355869
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Post by
Interest
from what I recall, you can't Freezing Trap 2 targets at the same time.
You can get close: prior to a pull, place your first trap in the path of a mob, and let it cook for 30 seconds. Then launch a second trap at a second target. You can also keep two targets trapped indefinitely, if you trap them initially ~30s apart. (Don't forget that you can also effectively CC a target by off-tanking it with your pet.)
A one-minute life on the trap also makes it a nice insurance policy, placed in front of your healer.
Pretty sure after years of PvP experience most players training a Hunter are going to think twice before going in a straight line after them.
You'd be surprised how often this works.
I was mostly referring to Readiness.
Hm, that's odd, you can multitrap. It wasn't possible before.
Well, then I take back what I said about the multi-target CC. (still pretty impractical for BM though)
Post by
asakawa
lol @ Lanath.
think you've got a fan Interest ^_^
i hope you've never put your address on the internet or you might just get a visitor one of these days.
Post by
matheus314
lol @ lanath.
think you've got a fan interest ^_^
i hope you've never put your address on the internet or you might just get a visitor one of these days.
And I hope that Interest doesn't take Nykki's approach when he do that... =P
Post by
355869
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Post by
683852
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
Some examples of this would be in Heroic: Grim Batol, when Erudax summons the two Faceless Guardians and they start running for the eggs. While its imperative to kill them as quickly as possible (or if you're going for the achievement, for them to not reach the eggs and cast) its far more beneficial to 'waste' a GCD on Concussive Shot for the slowing effect, rather then attempting to just kill them outright. A personal DPS loss, yes, but in this case you were able to slow them, from 40 yards away, and that was more important than doing as much DPS as possible.
I want to expand on this... hunters can do more than simply Conc Shot and DPS one add. We can have our pet snare and DPS the other add, too. After failing on this boss a few days ago, and not wanting to rely on PUG's to be able to handle this mechanic, I leveled a crocolisk to 85.
Yesterday, I drew Grim Batol as my random, and joined a PUG at the last boss. They asked me if I knew the fight, but I already had my croc out, and was ready to snare and DPS both adds at the same time, every time.
The fight lasted seven-and-a-half minutes, and I needed a battle res, but we got it on my first try. (And I still topped the damage meter.)
Concussive Shot is also useful during the prior boss fight in Grim Batol. Slow the exploding add before it reaches its target.
The cynical view of hunter utility is largely unwarranted.
I find it highly warranted. It's just a bit discouraging when one class has to sacrifice their dps while other classes can go about using their normal rotation more or less (there are a couple other class/specs with a slight issue in this direction, such as Affliction Warlock, who must Curse of Exhaustion to slow, but the slow is far longer, and spells like Soul Swap prevent the player from missing a beat). Keep in mind that in some cases every point of damage can matter. It's what might stop a healer from going oom and inevitably a wipe and result in a close success.
Does it mean I'm going to stop using Concussive Shot (or other abilities), be an ass, and say "have someone else do it?" No, not really. This thread was made more to point out what is empirically wrong with us in terms of our utility.
And you'd be surprised how often people actually do run in a straight line towards you, throwing out a trap is much more efficient than shooting a trap towards them, you somewhat hide where you place the trap better as well (even though it looks quite weird when you slide along the ground on your knees). Which is the reason why I still want hunters to have the opportunity to choose between launching and dropping traps (some people voice that every time you click on a trap you get the targeting circle, and just get rid of the Trap Launcher). Although, the "fake" GCD triggered with Trap Launcher should be removed so we can make a macro that you don't need to click multiple times to work somewhat sane (this is part of the "clumsy mechanics"-series, and not of the "this makes hunter PvP undesirable"-series, for the record).
Strange, I usually have to deal with trap dancers. Also the smaller radius can result in baiting to fail.
Btw, wtb ability to animation cancel trap laying like back in the day. o.0.
And I agree with the "fake" GCD thing. Getting a tad tired of my castsequence macros.
Also, regarding the Hunter PvP part. This is where most of the issues are intended to be focused on. PvE mobs can't really outplay your clumsy mechanics. For instance, if you screw up on a Freezing Trap, it's pretty obvious how the mob acts and it's a matter of using Distracting Shot or something to successfully CC the target. However, on the other hand, players can, and they have been smashing right through our weak points as a result (not like that doesn't happen to everyone). Should there be so many gaps in our ability to be effective?
Post by
683852
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Post by
Interest
It's probably a better idea to start a new thread purely dedicated to hunter PvP issues and not mix together both PvE and PvP. In PvE, not only won't there be much support in the community (we are topping the DPS meters at the moment, with predictable enemies we got among the best utilities and we can bring about any missing raid buffs through our pets), PvE is actually an aspect at least I find "fairly well" at the time being. My only complaints there right now is slightly clumsy mechanics, primarily related to the Trap Launcher, but in comparison to PvP issues, that's a drop in the ocean.
I don't have much of an issue with our PvE. We're actually just fine more or less. Sometimes I have to deal with having to bandage instead of Evocating after the Rajh AOE phase or something, but I find we work well enough.
Perhaps I will do that. I was planning on making another thread anyways.
Btw, check my edit above, I do share your sentiment. I usually rethink my posts a few times.
Post by
355869
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
I find it highly warranted. It's just a bit discouraging when one class has to sacrifice their dps while other classes can go about using their normal rotation more or less Keep in mind that in some cases every point of damage can matter. It's what might stop a healer from going oom and inevitably a wipe and result in a close success.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't share your sentiment. In exactly those cases, it's an easy decision to sacrifice some personal DPS in order to lower the overall DPS (and healing) bar for the group (for example, switching to Aspect of the Wild, when there's a lot of incoming Nature damage). I find a lot of satisfaction in that.
Well, that's why I didn't mention AotW. I was going to, but I felt what I put was sufficient. =P
Unfortunately, after a couple expansions of this, where buffs are mostly homogenized and so on, I really don't think that spark feels quite as great anymore though.
Oh well. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.
E: Actually, I think you took what I posted out of context a bit. What I meant was the group's damage, not the damage to the group, but your point is quite valid too.
Post by
608
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
683852
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
tl;dr
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