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Assassination, Combat, or Subtlety?
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Post by
103184
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Post by
Wildhorn
Hemo itself isn't a net gain in damage efficiency, it's no more effective than sinister strike. Less energy, less damage.
Yeah but also increase offhand damage, which compensate a bit for DWS
Premeditation is a relatively long cooldown, and even though it comes into play more often than say, adrenaline rush, its benefit is far smaller.
So is all combat cooldowns. Yet it benefit just as much, for 1 mob.
Shadowstep is pushing it. Its main function is mobility - though the slight damage buff to a single attack might end a fight a second or two earlier I guess.
Make my eviserate hit harder, so killing mob faster.
Even if you were to add the above three talents to the subtlety list, you still should be able to notice a distinct qualitative discrepancy between the two lists. Forget quantity for a moment, instead consider the extent to which each talent truly benefits a rogue during repetitive combat. Surely you can notice the difference between the two lists...
I think sub talent benefit more than combat for mob grinding
@Gauroth
1) Gratz for the pyramid (against wow forum rules)
2) Yeah because it is so nice to have 1 dead mob and 4 mobs at 80% hp.
Post by
doombringer
Sub, quite simply, is more "rogue" than Combat. Assassination also has that "rogue" feel to it. With Combat, you're effectively a Fury Warrior with Stealth. That's NOT a bad thing when it comes to leveling. You'll level fast, because you will kill quickly AND you will mitigate or avoid more damage. More survivability there, and it's mostly automatic (passive dodge and parry as opposed to activating and cooling down, i.e. Evasion). My Combat Rogue can effectively go mob to mob without even stealthing and simply obliterate them with a SS -> Slice and Dice -> SS, SS, Eviscerate. Stealth and Cheap Shot and et cetera are just gravy ;)
That said, I can't wait to go Subtlety. I love stealthing and sneaking and distracting and lining up for a big Ambush or a juicy Garrote, and Shadowstep is awesome.
Post by
Wildhorn
As Sub I can too go mob to mob without even stealthing.
Post by
Phagus
As Sub I can too go mob to mob without even stealthing.
Which is obviously why all your talent points go into being able to use stealth more effictively.......
Post by
Wildhorn
1) WOOT they added an editing bar for comments :D
2) Read post before mine.
Post by
105900
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103911
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105900
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103911
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105900
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Post by
Wildhorn
Edit: To someone who thinks taking on 4 to 5 mobs is stupid or something to that effect...I did it all the time when i was spec'd combat (currently mutilate and loving it) in AV. I would take on the 4 guards at the SHGY by sapping 1, blind another AR/BF and take out the other two then kill the blind one then kill the sapped one and take the GY. Easy as that. Now if they were level 70s that'd be harder but they are 68s and so it's easier and when leveling fast you usually fight mobs two to three levels below you to "get-er-done" fast :) And i wouldn't recommend doing all your pulls like that as 2 at once is sufficient. But when you can't avoid it...combat makes it possible.
By 4-5 mobs at sametime, we mean all free of their will bashing on you. Of course CCing 2 of them is possible, even Sub can do that.
And w/e you think Remx, so far it seem I am the one here who leveled up a rogue the fastest /played.
Post by
Remx
Well, seeing as reason isn't seeming to help any... I'll just restate it for any onlookers still following this thread.
Wildhorn obviously isn't going to accept it, but he is wrong. Subtlety doesn't come close to combat in terms of damage output (long term or short term against any level or type of mob) or overall levelling efficiency. I can tell you right now that a lot of the other experienced rogues in the community would facepalm at the notion that this is even being seriously debated.
My conclusions here aren't the products of my opinion, but those of my research and the time I've invested in learning the class. Opinion doesn't even come into play when the answer has already been mathematically reasoned/proven and you know it to have been done so (not that you even need math in this case).
You know you're grasping for straws when you try to fault common knowledge, reasoning that 'maybe everyone is actually wrong'. Sorry, but that's not the way it works. Such common knowledge is the mean product of the considered reasonings and research of the entire rogue community, and they're not wrong.
Post by
125385
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Post by
Wildhorn
Slokov, 4 guards in AV is not a good example. They have lower hp than a normal mob.
Post by
Orphiel
Slokov, 4 guards in AV is not a good example. They have lower hp than a normal mob.
Shouldn't this benefit you, then? It's a perfect example. Combat has higher sustained damage on multiple targets than Sub does. Their HP is irregardless. He can kill 4 mobs faster than you can regardless of their HP.
If you put the damage meters together, the combat specced rogue's white damage is going to be higher than the sub specced rogue's white damage will be. However, the yellow damage is probably suffering a similiar fate. After your initial burst, you don't have the same sustainability that a combat rogue has.
ShS is not a superiour PvE spec. In the same gear, same enchants, same gems, Combat is going to win. Math proves it.
Post by
125385
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Post by
Orphiel
Take into account Slice and Dice, which adds far more passive white damage than you're taking into account.
And Blade Flurry, which is even more white damage.
How do we close the damage gap? By producing far more damage in the same amount of time that you do.
Also, Expose Armor. We can achieve the same effect, as the cost of combo points. But why mess with a good thing when we can just use two skills and make up for that loss of damage that we don't have when opening with Ambush.
Also, I've never seen Ambush crit for 10k damage; 'half' of the mobs HP isn't realistic at all. Beat up on sunfury elves in Netherstorm for a while and compare as Combat Swords and ShS/Hemo. Compare the amount of time that it takes you to clear the area as Sub and as Combat. Combat will come out on top, and Sub will not. 3-4 of my SS crits will close the gap on what your opening Ambush did, and you can't sustain your damage to beat this superiority in builds. Of course, you're also implying that Sub has better chances when rolling against RNG, which every build suffers from. This isn't true. I can be far more successful through RNG than you can, or vice versa. It's a flawed mechanic that makes it harder to prove these things sufficiently.
Post by
Wildhorn
@Orphiel we dont talk PvE, we talk lvling up. Which mean fast dieing mobs.
@Slokov I didnt bring up this stupid 4 mobs thing. It was someone else saying he was pulling 4-5 mobs at sametime, which is completly useless to pull more than 2.
And we dont talk about raid damnit. We are talking about which spec lvl up faster.
Post by
Orphiel
PvE = leveling.
Regardless of whether you'd like to beleive it or not, but you are interacting with the environment. Hence 'player versus environment'. Perhaps if you read my post, you'd understand that I did make a 'leveling' example.
1. Find Manaforge Blood Elves.
2. Grind them.
3. ???
4. Profit from your newfound knowledge.
And Blade Flurry doesn't always strike the same mob; also, if one mob dies, it switches off to a new target, making it useful for combat rogues to pull in large groups. It's far more efficient than killing one at a time.
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