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Islamic Community Center in Manhattan
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Post by
393249
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
All I said was that it would be easy to confuse Al-Qaeda with Islam, because Al-Qaeda happens to be a Sunni organization, which has the most members of Islam.
This sounds like you're saying it's acceptable (or at least defensible or excusable) to confuse Al-Qaeda and Islam because its 'easy' to do so if you're ignorant of all the details... thats not a very good reason, if you ask me.
Also, no reply to my last post? Was my clarification good enough, and do you have an answer?
Post by
Monday
All I said was that it would be easy to confuse Al-Qaeda with Islam, because Al-Qaeda happens to be a Sunni organization, which has the most members of Islam.
This sounds like you're saying it's acceptable (or at least defensible or excusable) to confuse Al-Qaeda and Islam because its 'easy' to do so if you're ignorant of all the details... thats not a very good reason, if you ask me.
Also, no reply to my last post? Was my clarification good enough, and do you have an answer?
I actually missed your last post =P
And for your point, I'm not saying it is good, but I am saying it is possible.
And basically for the rest, right now I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I have nothing against the Center being built, I am merely voicing the opinions of those opposed (kinda like what Squishalot does in religious debates. But I'm not sure I''m doing it too well =P)
Edit: And this will be my last post, helping my sister make muffins then going to do SC2.
Post by
Squishalot
Heh, is that my cue to step into the debate now?
On the topic of the two newspaper articles that Funden posted, I'm amazed that any news outlet can get away with such biased reporting without being sued for libel / defamation.
"I am a peace builder," he explained -- so long as peace-building doesn't require saying a discouraging word about the Palestinian murderers of innocent Jews.
That sort of statement would get your editorial (and your integrity, and your career) ripped to shreds in Australia.
A noncommercial edition was published by two organizations that have ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and promote Hamas.
"A noncommercial edition of the Bible was published by two organisations that have ties to Hillsong and promote Mercy Ministries, Hillsong's money-making cult front for the psychological abuse of young women through exorcism."
It's just as biased, but doesn't take away from the fact that the Bible itself has no real link to exorcism as practised by Mercy. The book itself has nothing to do with its publishers, provided that there are no changes to the contents.
Post by
Liegelord505
I find the whole situation to be a failing on both sides of the issue. I blame the Imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf, for picking a location so close to a touchy spot in today's world. It's just too soon. To quote the ever comedical Daily Show, "You wouldn't build a Catholic Church near a playground, would you?". I understand New York is crowded and I understand that it's not right on top of Ground Zero, but seriously? Who dropped the ball on that one? "You know what NYC really needs? More Islam." Yeah, that was just a bad idea. Give us more time, or change locations, that is a better alternative.
However, I think the reaction is also poorly thought out. Just because it is under the banner of Islam does not mean there are terrorists on site. That is so ludicrous its not even funny. Terrorists are to Islam as Polygamists are to Mormonism. Backwards, and generally looked down upon by their peers. However, the mainstream American public is grossly unaware of this fact. Looking to capitalize on those fears, various media organizations have been incessantly blaring the supposed "atrocity" across all forms of communications. Newspapers, radio, internet, and television are all bombarded with the building of a Islam Community Center. And people are outraged, and rightly so. The information they are getting is completely biased. To them, they take the statements made as legitimate fact. They actually believe a mosque is being built at Ground Zero. Because they don't know any better. A famous quote does incredible justice for this situation, "One who does not read the newspaper is uninformed. One who does is misinformed."
Post by
Monday
The above post now reflects my position. You are awesome.
Post by
Heckler
I still don't see any
proper
argument in your blame of the Imam. First, it's not the Imam who's made this a National headline, that was the Christian Right and the controversy-loving corporate media. Secondly, the Islam religion agreeing to give NYC "more time" would be the same exact thing as the Mormon church saying "No, let's not build a temple there, they say they don't want polygamy."
To give in to protests that equate Islam to Terrorism is to agree that they are justified in some way; just as to give in to anti-polygamy protests against Mormonism is to agree that they have some justification.
I don't understand why the refusal to appease the ignorant is a bad thing.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything in your second paragraph, and I'll even agree that from a pure "political strategy" standpoint, maybe the Imam should have foreseen this controversy (it's not as if the ignorance of the American public is a big secret after all) and avoided the bad press (justified or not) that comes with it. Maybe that's all you were saying, but I'm still looking for a proper legitimate argument against this center -- ignorant populist anger and unjustified bad press don't fit this qualifier. Further, these types of improper arguments should be exposed as such when they are used to sway public opinion.
Post by
Dragoonman
Its simple, the only reason people would find it offensive or bad that a Islamic group of people want to build a mosque is because the Islamic and Muslim people have been marginalized so badly that we believe that they as a people are bad instead of just the few radicalist that exist in their religion.
Its not just Republicans that are complaining. Many stupid people are complaining, after all, stupidity isn't confined to one group of people.
As for the obvious part of the argument, FREEDOM OF RELIGION. They are not hurting anyone building a mosque, and they have a right to do so, just as other religious groups have the right to build structures on private property.
Jeez. The mainstream media is really getting on my nerves. They make such a huge deal of everything and then bring on people to argue with them, so even a bigger deal could be made of something that is obviously ok.
Are they really trying to make us question if our constitutional rights could perhaps be a little too free? Maybe. I stand firm in believing that equality is the most important thing in America. Equality above all else is what made America the most famous country in the world because it gave every human being a chance to become more than just a slave to a ruling family. Because the founding fathers thought every human life is precious, and that everyone should deserve a chance to do what they dream of.
I happen to agree with them. I believe everyone should have the chance to do what they want.
Sorry for the long wall of text, I kinda went into a monologue. But again, freedom of religion. The first amendment. It isn't that hard.
O yeah, and btw. It isn't RIGHT ON TOP OF GROUND ZERO. It is NEAR ground zero. And if you really think it is too soon to be building a mosque near ground zero... You yourself have marginalized the entire Islamic and Muslim community, and seem to believe that they are all responsible for 9/11. I believe they are building it where a clothing store used to be correct? I don't exactly think that it is hallowed ground.
You really can't rely on the mainstream media anymore. Now you have to use the internet, which I think is the greatest tool for information to ever come into existence.
P.S. I find it odd that the mainstream media always goes for the issues that will create a firestorm don't you? In fact, some of the issues seem like they were purposely made to appear. I'm becoming angry O.o
Post by
393249
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Post by
534868
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Post by
375923
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Post by
574857
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Post by
Heckler
News just in, the plans for this commuinity center are gone now due to the owner of it negotiating with the the recently infamous pastor who planned to burn copys of the Qu'ran (prob spelt wrong there) publicly on 9/11.
Where do you get your news? I can't find anything to corroborate your claim, can you provide a link? The only cancellation I see is the Quran burning party.
Also I take back what I said earlier in the thread, after seeing how close it was to Ground Zero I agree it should not of been built.
Can you give more of an explanation than this? I still don't understand how proximity to ground zero has anything to do with anything, even if were were right across the street. What does this center have to do with 9/11 or ground zero?
Post by
Monday
News just in, the plans for this commuinity center are gone now due to the owner of it negotiating with the the recently infamous pastor who planned to burn copys of the Qu'ran (prob spelt wrong there) publicly on 9/1
It's just a rumour going around, as the person planning to build the center has denied anything like that happened.
Where do you get your news? I can't find anything to corroborate your claim, can you provide a link? The only cancellation I see is the Quran burning party.
The Pastor is reconsidering that decision.
Post by
Heckler
The Pastor is reconsidering that decision.
Someone recently wrote an Op-Ed (I'll go looking for the actual source if requested) that said something along the lines of 'if this center is forced out of the area, it will prove that radicals
on both sides
of this discussion are in control of the dialog.' I couldn't agree more, Islam has its radicals and so does Christianity. This 'pastor' (a good example) is a jackass who's just clamoring for publicity, and he's doing it at the expense of the American image and the efforts of many (of all faiths and non-faiths) for a peaceful world.
There can't be anyone here who actually supports his idea of burning the Quran, can there?
Post by
574857
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
375923
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
When I said he's reconsidering it, I meant he's, again, considering burning them.
Post by
574857
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Should a Christian church/commuinity center be built beside a Nazi concentration camp? Should a protestant church be built at the site of bloody sunday in northern ireland?
The builders of the commuinity center knew they were going to be causing trouble by choosing that location no matter what way you look at it and should of chosen a diffrent location plain and simple.
1. The mosque would be two blocks away.
2. There is
already a mosque
a several blocks away from Ground Zero.
3. Tolerance, and even better acceptance of the fact these aren't the same goddamn people.
Edi:^Source please.
"I can tell you 100 percent Pastor Jones will not burn the Quran tomorrow," evangelist Kilari Anand Paul told the Orlando Sentinel outside the Dove World Outreach Center. "There will be no Quran burning. Otherwise I would not be here." However, asked whether that meant Jones had abandoned the idea, Paul said, "I cannot speak for the future."
Should a Christian church/commuinity center be built beside a Nazi concentration camp?
Read this story.
Corrie ten Boom and her sister Betsie had been arrested for concealing Jews in their home during the Nazi occupation of Holland in World War II. They had been sent to the concentration camp at Ravensbruck. There Corrie saw her sister die from the inhumanly cruel treatment they received.
Following the war, Corrie returned to Germany “with the message that God forgives.” Everywhere she spoke, she explained that when we confess our sins and repent, “God casts them into the deepest ocean, gone forever.”
After one of her talks, a man came up to speak to her. She recognized him as one of the guards from the concentration camp. He stood in front of her, thrust out his hand, and said: “A fine message, Fräulein! How good it is to know that, as you say, all our sins are at the bottom of the sea!”
She recalls her reaction:
“I, who had spoken so glibly of forgiveness, fumbled in my pocketbook rather than take that hand. He would not remember me, of course—how could he remember one prisoner among those thousands of women?
“But I remembered him and the leather crop swinging from his belt. I was face to face with one of my captors and my blood seemed to freeze.
“ ‘You mentioned Ravensbruck in your talk,’ he was saying. ‘I was a guard there.’ No, he did not remember me.
“ ‘But since that time,’ he went on, ‘I have become a Christian. I know that God has forgiven me for the cruel things I did there, but I would like to hear it from your lips as well. Fraulein,’—again the hand came out—’will you forgive me?’ ”
“I stood there—I whose sins had again and again to be forgiven—and could not forgive. Betsie had died in that place—could he erase her slow, terrible death simply for the asking?
“It could not have been many seconds that he stood there—hand held out—but to me it seemed hours as I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to do.
“For I had to do it—I knew that. The message that God forgives has a prior condition: that we forgive those who have injured us. ‘If you do not forgive men their trespasses,’ Jesus says, ‘neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.’
“I knew it not only as a commandment of God, but as a daily experience. Since the end of the war I had had a home in Holland for victims of Nazi brutality. Those who were able to forgive their former enemies were able also to return to the outside world and rebuild their lives, no matter what the physical scars. Those who nursed their bitterness remained invalids. It was as simple and horrible as that.
“And still I stood there with the coldness clutching my heart. But forgiveness is not an emotion—I knew that too. Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. … ‘Help!’ I prayed silently. ‘I can lift my hand. I can do that much. You supply the feeling.’
“And so woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to me. And as I did, an incredible thing took place. The current started in my shoulder, raced down my arm, sprang into our joined hands. And then this healing warmth seemed to flood my whole being, bringing tears to my eyes.
“ ‘I forgive you, brother!’ I cried. ‘With all my heart!’
“For a long moment we grasped each other’s hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. I had never known God’s love so intensely, as I did then”
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