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Islamic Community Center in Manhattan
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Post by
296147
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
124027
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
What makes you think the US is any different?Heh, think about what you just said there IronGolem.....
I actually laughed when I thought about how to respond. (Is it that the US's main government also shares it's name with a group of Baboons?) Seriously tho, 4am, if I've missed something obvious do tell...
There is that, but you were talking about the US Government, which is not known for making rational decisions about things.
Post by
124027
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Who else heard of this from the Daily Show/Colbert Report?
Honestly, the first time I heard about it and gave it more than 2 seconds of thought was when
Sarah Palin tweeted the word "refudiate"
-- mostly though, this was just because I thought that was funny -- I generally don't take anything Sarah Palin says seriously. When I heard it on the radio and other TV programs, I paid a little more attention, still pretty convinced that it was simply a non-issue being hyper-inflated by the right to prey on the ignorant (or by the media, for cable news ratings) -- and that there was no intellectual argument against this Islamic Center.
But when the Daily Show picked it up, I got a little worried that maybe I was missing something in this debate -- generally, an issue has to reach a certain 'level' to make it on the Daily Show, otherwise its audience wouldn't understand it. In addition, the Daily Show has a way of presenting news stories with a comedic spin that has the power to grab the attention of even those who normally don't pay attention -- which is why everyone loves it I think
.
So far, this post has convinced me that
every
argument against this Center is based on a ridiculous assertion that Islam and Al-Qaeda are the same thing. Even those who simply say "maybe it wouldn't be wise" or "it would be disrespectful" or "even if they have the RIGHT to do it, it doesn't mean it should be done" -- these arguments also require the association of Islam and 9/11 in a way that punishes Islam as a whole for the action of a few crazy people who were Muslim (for example, Newt Gingrich recently said this is the same thing as hanging a Swastika on the Holocaust Museum). It's also confirmed my suspicion that
any
level of
intellectual
thought on the topic leads to the same conclusions I've reached.
The fact that the story is still a story says a lot about the level of intellectual thought going on in America these days.
Thanks for all your input =)
Post by
Monday
*shrug*
I personally don't care if they build an Islamic center near Ground Zero, as it might bring understanding to all parties.
However.
A few quotes from my local paper (yes it is a Republican paper).
If the founders of the project are as serious about interfaith bridge-building as they say, they'd be delighted to find a less controversial location. Rubbing hurt feelings raw is not an act of understanding. Stoking a religiously charged debate at ground zero is not a blow for tolerance. They are provocations, by people who are either witless or understand exactly what they are doing.
It is true that Islam as such is not responsible for 9/11, but symbolism and the sensibilities of New Yorkers and victims of 9/11 can't be discounted. When the Anti-Defamation League bravely bucked elite opinion to oppose the project, its national director, Abe Foxman, made an illuminating comparison with a Carmelite convent established outside Auschwitz in the 1980s.
Carmelites were not a cog in Adolf Hitler's death machine. Survivors of the Holocaust and Jewish groups nonetheless found the Catholic outpost offensive, which was enough for Pope John Paul II to ask the nuns to move. True interfaith bridge-building is made of such forbearance.
The organizers of the mosque, in contrast, relish their hot-button address. Feisal Abdul Rauf, the project's imam, wrote a book called "What's Right With Islam Is What's Right With America."
But as former prosecutor Andy McCarthy points out, it was published in Malaysia under the more pungent title "A Call to Prayer From the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11" (dawa is Islamic proselytism). A noncommercial edition was published by two organizations that have ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and promote Hamas.
Rauf himself won't condemn the Palestinian terror group. Asked about Hamas in a recent radio interview, he said, "Terrorism is a very complex question," the stock answer of anyone excusing terrorism. "I am a peace builder," he explained -- so long as peace-building doesn't require saying a discouraging word about the Palestinian murderers of innocent Jews.
Post by
Adamsm
That second article is full of #$%^ Funden... but that's more or less what the Republicans are like; rather then deal with real problems, make up ones to show themselves in a better light.
As for the first.... notice how they more or less say "Islam is evil, and we need to show support of the 9/11 survivors".... except the American Government has more or less said 'okay, only bring up 9/11 when we want to get something passed, and who cares if it bothers the survivors familys'.... so much stupidity.
Post by
Heckler
Do you have any opinion about the quotes you posted, Funden? Agree, disagree, anything? It seems silly to respond to
you
unless I know what
you
think, dropping a couple newspaper clippings does little to show me that.
Post by
Monday
That second article is full of #$%^ Funden... but that's more or less what the Republicans are like; rather then deal with real problems, make up ones to show themselves in a better light.
I will not take what you say seriously, because of your attitude toward Republicans (and because you seem to find some way to disagree with me whenever I debate, even if I am correct by all sense of the term). It seems that any Republican article is full of crap to you.
As for the first.... notice how they more or less say "Islam is evil, and we need to show support of the 9/11 survivors"
They did? Kindly show me where.
... except the American Government has more or less said 'okay, only bring up 9/11 when we want to get something passed, and who cares if it bothers the survivors familys'.... so much stupidity.
So they haven't bothered before according to you, yet when they do start you don't like it? Make up your mind please.
Do you have any opinion about the quotes you posted, Funden? Agree, disagree, anything?
The first I agree with. They say that the want to bring tolerance and all that, however they ignore the number of people that don't want the center built there, even with their "mission to build peace".
The second I am neutral on. If it is completely unbiased and true, then I will be against the building of the mosque. However, at this current time I have no idea what the level of bias is.
Post by
Heckler
The first I agree with. They say that the want to bring tolerance and all that, however they ignore the number of people that don't want the center built there, even with their "mission to build peace".
Let me give you a hypothetical, just to get your response: Let's say the Mormon Church wanted to build a temple somewhere, and let's say there were protests up and down the streets about "STOP THE SPREAD OF POLYGAMY!" and "KEEP THE RACISTS OUT OF OUR TOWN!" and all sorts of other completely
untrue
objections to the Temple and the Religion.
Why on Earth would the Mormon Church capitulate to "the number of people that don't want the" temple built there? Wouldn't it seem sort of like a form of guilt-admission if they did take the ignorant protests into account?
Your stance makes no sense, because the people who are against this center (who are a minority of NYC's population, by the way) have not made one single logical, rational, truthful argument against the Center. Your first article does not even address this point, and to put it back into the hypothetical, it's like he's saying "It doesn't matter if Polygamy is a Mormon belief or not, the people don't want it there, and that's what matters!" -- Doesn't that seem like a silly stance?
The second I am neutral on. If it is completely unbiased and true, then I will be against the building of the mosque. However, at this current time I have no idea what the level of bias is.
I'm confused why you would even post it on a forum if you don't know these things you say you don't know. But, assuming it was just to be a discussion point...
What's wrong with the book? The book's original title basically says "Converting people to Islam after 9/11" -- A religion wanting to convert people is hardly unusual, and definitely not controversial. Addressing 9/11 is actually quite important in the specific case of Islam, since many ignorant people have come to freely associate Islam with Global Terrorism.
Post by
Adamsm
That second article is full of #$%^ Funden... but that's more or less what the Republicans are like; rather then deal with real problems, make up ones to show themselves in a better light.
I will not take what you say seriously, because of your attitude toward Republicans (and because you seem to find some way to disagree with me whenever I debate, even if I am correct by all sense of the term). It seems that any Republican article is full of crap to you.
As for the first.... notice how they more or less say "Islam is evil, and we need to show support of the 9/11 survivors"
They did? Kindly show me where.
... except the American Government has more or less said 'okay, only bring up 9/11 when we want to get something passed, and who cares if it bothers the survivors familys'.... so much stupidity.
So they haven't bothered before according to you, yet when they do start you don't like it? Make up your mind please. Funden, the full of &*!@ comment was not aimed at you, it was aimed at the article itself; you did admit it was a Republican paper, and that is the usual kind of crap you see in there. Also, I'm sure you remember, but for the first years after 9/11, on the date in question, there were memorial services and the like... but after the War on Terror went into a nose dive, all of a sudden, the day is no longer 'honoured' for lack of a better term.
What I dislike, is that when it's good for them, or they can use it to stir up problems, there fine with making reference to it, but the rest of the time they just leave it alone, as if it's suddenly not important anymore.... which is what the entire idea of the Center being built, to repair some broken bridges that over zealous people shattered after 9/11; how many American born Muslims were targeted after the attacks, even though they had no connection at all to Al Queda......
Post by
Monday
Let me give you a hypothetical, just to get your response: Let's say the Mormon Church wanted to build a temple somewhere, and let's say there were protests up and down the streets about "STOP THE SPREAD OF POLYGAMY!" and "KEEP THE RACISTS OUT OF OUR TOWN!" and all sorts of other completely untrue objections to the Temple and the Religion.
Why on Earth would the Mormon Church capitulate to "the number of people that don't want the" temple built there? Wouldn't it seem sort of like a form of guilt-admission if they did take the ignorant protests into account?
Your stance makes no sense, because the people who are against this center (who are a minority of NYC's population, by the way) have not made one single logical, rational, truthful argument against the Center. Your first article does not even address this point, and to put it back into the hypothetical, it's like he's saying "It doesn't matter if Polygamy is a Mormon belief or not, the people don't want it there, and that's what matters!" -- Doesn't that seem like a silly stance?
It has happened many times (the people protesting and all that). But the thing is, have the LDS church ever gone and killed many thousands of people, (even a fringe/extremist group)? Your counterpoint doesn't quite work, as the severity of the Islamic scenario is much larger.
But, assuming it was just to be a discussion point...
It was.
Post by
Heckler
It has happened many times (the people protesting and all that). But the thing is, have the LDS church ever gone and killed many thousands of people, (even a fringe/extremist group)? Your counterpoint doesn't quite work, as the severity of the Islamic scenario is much larger.
You've made my point.
You imply that the
Religion
of Islam committed the acts of 9/11, when this is simply not true. As far as fringe/extremist groups, it would be wrong to assume equivalence between the
FLDS
Church, and the
LDS
Church in the form of protests against the LDS rooted in bias formed from the FLDS. The severity of the act of the minority has nothing to do with this equivalence, it's wrong no matter how you look at it.
Post by
Adamsm
Your counterpoint doesn't quite work, as the severity of the Islamic scenario is much larger.What Heckler said, and expanding on it; why is that Muslims born in America were targeted by those called themselves 'freedom' fighters and the like? How many mosque, homes and business were attacked, burned, vandalized and the rest following 9/11 for no reason other then that they 'believed' in the same thing as that terrorist group? How many lost jobs because of the colour of their skin(because they looked too much like the 'terrorist')? Seriously, the Center being built where it is a good thing; in the years following 9/11(even now in some places), you'd think it was 1950 again in the States, and the Muslims were the new Blacks or something.
Post by
Monday
Funden, the full of &*!@ comment was not aimed at you, it was aimed at the article itself; you did admit it was a Republican paper, and that is the usual kind of crap you see in there.
My edit failed.
This is why I don't listen to you Adams. I consider myself conservative. So why should I listen to your posts which generally revolve around "republicans are liars and evil and they are all full of crap." Seriously, look at your post, find the bias, and then make an argument that does not revolve around "republicans are evil and stupid and are all full of crap."
you imply that the Religion of Islam committed the acts of 9/11, when this is simply not true.
I worded my post badly. What I mean to say is that an extremist group killed thousands, and used Islam as their basis.
You imply that the Religion of Islam committed the acts of 9/11, when this is simply not true. As far as fringe/extremist groups, it would be wrong to assume equivalence between the FLDS Church, and the LDS Church in the form of protests against the LDS rooted in bias formed from the FLDS. The severity of the act of the minority has nothing to do with this equivalence, it's wrong no matter how you look at it.
It would be wrong, as both officially claim themselves as separate entities. (oh and you linked the wrong LDS church =P I am not a Strangite...)
While Al-Qaeda is officially a Sunni organization (which also happens to be the largest), it would be wrong of me to blame all of Islam (which I didn't do, but...)
So what exactly are you saying? (this is not meant to be deragatory, I merely wish for a clearer argument. Once again, this may be me being slow.)
Post by
Adamsm
Funden, the full of &*!@ comment was not aimed at you, it was aimed at the article itself; you did admit it was a Republican paper, and that is the usual kind of crap you see in there.
My edit failed.
This is why I don't listen to you Adams. I consider myself conservative. So why should I listen to your posts which generally revolve around "republicans are liars and evil and they are all full of crap." Seriously, look at your post, find the bias, and then make an argument that does not revolve around "republicans are evil and stupid and are all full of crap."Bit of irony there; seeing as your posts here have just as much bias towards the Islamic community as I do against the Republicans. Also, no one argues anything without any type of bias; I've never really seen the Republicans do something 'good' that wasn't entirely self motivated, or wasn't about taking shots at the other religions/belief systems/race and all the rest. As for why.... why should anyone listen to anyone's post here; after all, everyone disagrees with everyone else about something, so everyone will find something wrong.
Post by
Heckler
I worded my post badly. What I mean to say is that an extremist group killed thousands, and used Islam as their basis.
Two things. First, your bad wording
exactly
underlines the problem with this entire controversy and the discussion surrounding it. Secondly, the actions of an extremist group, regardless of their severity or justification, should not have any impact of the global view of that which they are extreme in comparison to. If 18 guys blew up a building tomorrow and claimed Mormonism was their basis, would you all of a sudden have a bad view of your religion? Of course not. Muslims were killed on 9/11, Muslims abhor the actions of Al-Qaeda, etc., etc.
Punishing Islam in any for what happened on 9/11 is altogether improper.
So what exactly are you saying? (this is not meant to be deragatory, I merely wish for a clearer argument. Once again, this may be me being slow.)
It sounds like we agree. I'm saying that there is no proper argument against this Islamic center. Articles like the ones you linked are simply pushing improper arguments.
If you agree with my hypothetical, which was meant to show that the arguments of the first article are improper (that is, any assumption of association between 9/11 and this Islamic center), then in what way do you
agree
with the first article?
You said they should take the protesters opinions into account, but
why
should they when the protesters are spouting ignorant non-truths?
Post by
Monday
Bit of irony there; seeing as your posts here have just as much bias towards the Islamic community as I do against the Republicans.
Perhaps my bias stems from ignorance. I have no problems whatsoever with Islam. What I do have problems with are the undeniable presence of extremist and terrorist groups operating under the name of Islam. I know people that practice Islam, and I like them.
Perhaps I should clarify my stance. I think that building a center
could
be the start of "building bridges". However, I also think that it is a sensitive area. Thus, if they don't build it I won't be sad, but if they do build it I wouldn't be happy either.
Also, show me where I've said "All Islamic people are evil and full of crap."
I've never really seen the Republicans do something 'good' that wasn't entirely self motivated, or wasn't about taking shots at the other religions/belief systems/race and all the rest.
Then that is willful ignorance, and you continue to perpetrate it.
As for why.... why should anyone listen to anyone's post here; after all, everyone disagrees with everyone else about something, so everyone will find something wrong.
Yes, but we don't (at least I don't) disagree by saying, "I hate all of them, they all suck and are evil and full of crap."
Post by
Adamsm
Most politicians are full of crap, that's a part of life. As for the good... make a link, show me some good things done by Republicans Funden; I did say I've never seen them do something that wasn't motivated by self-worth over everything else.
Also, show me where I've said "All Islamic people are evil and full of crap."
While Al-Qaeda is officially a Sunni organization (which also happens to be the largest), it would be wrong of me to blame all of Islam (which I didn't do, but...) More or less saying that all Islamics must be part of Al-Qaeda there.....
But here's an idea Funden, say a milita group primarily made of Mormons rose up in the south, and attacked other religious centers or the gay community. Would you want those who were attacked to suddenly start lumping you in with that group? Of course not, but that's what happened to anyone who was dark skinned, believed in Islam, or was an 'open' Muslim after 9/11; it didn't matter if you were born in the Middle East or in Seattle, you were 'evil' to most of the population of American for some reason, and it hasn't really gotten better since.
Yes, but we don't (at least I don't) disagree by saying, "I hate all of them, they all suck and are evil and full of crap."Heh, right; but people are fine with generalizing people like that.
Post by
Monday
Also, show me where I've said "All Islamic people are evil and full of crap."
While Al-Qaeda is officially a Sunni organization (which also happens to be the largest), it would be wrong of me to blame all of Islam (which I didn't do, but...)
All I said was that it would be easy to confuse Al-Qaeda with Islam, because Al-Qaeda happens to be a Sunni organization, which has the most members of Islam. But then I also said it would be wrong of me to blame all of Islam, which is the same as saying I don't blame them all.
Nice try.
But here's an idea Funden, say a milita group primarily made of Mormons rose up in the south, and attacked other religious centers or the gay community. Would you want those who were attacked to suddenly start lumping you in with that group?
Already happened. (well, not the massacre, but lumping me in with polygamists and gay-haters and the like.)
make a link, show me some good things done by Republicans Funden; I did say I've never seen them do something that wasn't motivated by self-worth over everything else.
In November 2009 Chaffetz co-sponsored a bill in the House with Rep. Jim Matheson to block the importation of foreign nuclear waste into the United States
Hatch was one of the architects and advocates of the expansion of H-1b visas and has generally been an advocate of looser immigration policy
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