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Draenei offical swept under the rug..
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Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zxzas
Somebody made an angry poopoo....
Rotface my Idol.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
You do realize that the Exodar was the fourth satellite of the Tempest Keep right? The Living quarters to go with the Botanica(food and culture), the Mechanar(engineering and power), the Arctraz(self evident) and the Keep itself(the main ship).I think he's trying to gripe about "spaceships" while pretending that he's not griping about "spaceships."
I'm not sure if what you're saying is a bad thing. As everything is part of the story, everything is a plot device and the Shat'ari served their own purpose well: to oppose the Legion, not to redeem the Silvermoon Blood Elves.Note, "
mere
plot device." The draenei were treated as a plot device for the blood elves, and then basically dropped.
M'uru was the actual ''plot device'' (combined with the initial shock of Kael'thas' betrayal and hollow promises of a enchanted land full of rainbows made of pure mana) that lead to the Blood Knights creation and later redemption (in the future the rest of the Silvermoon Blood Elves as well, I think).M'uru was
a
plot device. The draenei were another. Burning Crusade—much as I liked it—somehow managed to both orbit almost entirely around blood elves, and to make said blood elves look bad.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
94844
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
The eredar weren't players at all in the corruption.Sargeras corrupted them,before him they weren't even relevant to the Burning Legion.And Kil'Jaeden is known as the Deceiver yes...and that has absolutely no bearing to Sargeras corruption so what are you trying to get into?
Are you trying to say that the "throwaway line" is that the Eredar happened to have some buddies that didn't become demons and those buddies just happen to also be the origin of the Frozen Throne Draenei and they also happen to have a "feud" with the Orcs which was instigated by (surprise surprise) the Deceiver which before TBC just corrupted the Orcs and told them to "Go *!@# the Humans up"?Because that throwaway line seems to be interfering with Orcs and Humans,Tides of Darkness,Beyond the Dark Portal,Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne.You know,everything before WoW.The original myth had the Dreadlords and the Eredar, two of the worst races Sargeras went up against, being the main ones responsible for him deciding that 'Order' was not the way the universe was meant to be, and that Chaos is how it should be. Once he turned, his first order of business was to free those two from the prisons he had placed them in, and as Sargeras was now against Order and Life, they pledged themselves to him willingly, to server him for all time.
The Retcon is of course, Sargeras corrupts them instead.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
The eredar weren't players at all in the
corruption
.Sargeras corrupted them,before him they weren't even relevant to the Burning Legion.And Kil'Jaeden is known as the Deceiver yes...and that has absolutely no bearing to Sargeras corruption so what are you trying to get into?As Adams has explained, the
original
story was that the presence of the eredar and the dreadlords caused Sargeras to become disillusioned and finally snap. The new story leaves the eredar out of the beginning (although there's still the implication that it wasn't
just
dreadlords) and makes them into Sargeras's first and strongest recruits instead.
And yes, Kil'jaeden being known as "the Deceiver"
is
relevant. It's possible (and, in fact, actually implied) that the original story was what people
thought
had happened, until the draenei showed up and set the record straight.
You don't get my point.I don't really care what they call it (or if it's a different dimension for that matter).For the intents and purposes of storytelling,it is the equivalent of a spaceship.Just like Spelljammers are.But you can keep arguing that they're different for semantics sake.They serve the same purpose and apparently unless someone is a complete lore fanatic they see it the same way.I thought the self-proclaimed "lore fanatics" were the ones complaining about "spaceships" in their "medieval setting." You know, the same people claiming that the invalidation of a single sentence "ruins the lore."
And really...even if one must think of them "spaceships," I don't find it any more jarring than spelljammers. Then again, I think I was one of the five people who actually
liked
that setting.
Hence the Spacegoat nickname.Which is still lame, still originally meant "talbuk," and still makes very little sense applied to draenei, but whatever.
Oh and just so you can stop asserting what my feelings are about the matter;I love it. The whole not-a-spaceship-dammit! thing and all.The way you word things, it doesn't really come off that way. The naaru...not so much.They feel like Mary Sue characters or even worse living Plot devices.Ehh...as far as I'm concerned, they're angels. They should serve the same purpose in the Warcraft universe as
solars
serve in any given D&D setting.
And yes, I
can
imagine a small faction of solars spiriting away the last uncorrupted remnant of an overwhelmingly corrupt and power-maddened race. (Now, continually leaving said humanoids in a position that it becomes necessary for the solars to meddle that much
after
the fact? Iffy.)
So we agree on this part?I suppose so.
What I want (and should be pretty obvious by what I wrote) is "Grimdark" and "Purity Sues" and "Don'tgivea*!@#s".You know,the whole moral spectrum?The Draenei seem to lack it.For that matter I don't enjoy the Forsaken too much either.They're way too "Grimdark".As I believe I've stated before, I think the reason draenei come off as "Purity Sues" is because they haven't gotten much lore development. The most in-depth anyone's gone on them is
Unbroken
, and that only really explains shamanism.
Now what you could do is argue that you can't take the race by itself and instead take the factiona s a whole....but that doesn't really help either.The alliance allready has enough Purity Sues and not quite enough Grimdarks.The Horde seems to be striking a better balance,between the honorable races (Orcs and Tauren) and the selfish ones (Undead and Blood Elves).One thing that I will agree on in regards to the draenei is that they did upset the "grey and gray morality" a bit. Originally, the Horde had both the most painfully honorable race in the game (the tauren) and the most morally dubious (the Forsaken), while the Alliance was pretty much uniformly neutral. Then BC comes along and gives the Horde another ambiguous race...and the Alliance an equivalent to tauren.
Post by
Alliari
We already know that one main character in Vash'jir is a broken shaman. That gives me a bit of hope that the Earthen Ring will have Broken/Draenei shaman in their ranks.
And to the fact whether or not the Draenei are 'too good', well...I like it. I like the fact that over 25,000 years of running from their former brethren have created a race that has managed to have this perfect demeanor for so long.
Post by
GVHB
We already know that one main character in Vash'jir is a broken shaman. That gives me a bit of hope that the Earthen Ring will have Broken/Draenei shaman in their ranks.
Not only that, but there are also Goblins and Dwarves shaman in the Earthen Ring.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
And to the fact whether or not the Draenei are 'too good', well...I like it. I like the fact that over 25,000 years of running from their former brethren have created a race that has managed to have this perfect demeanor for so long.Perhaps an appropriate way to put it is that they've been tempered by adversity?
I'm sorry, but what happened to the Draenei?Blizzard has been treating them like a failed experiment, possibly because fanboys whined.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
128242
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I'm a Lore Nerd, so I'd watch what you say there; I like the Draenei, and tolerate Knaak, not seeing him as the ultimate evil as so many do. I don't hate Varian, and I'm meh on Garrosh at the moment, with possible hopeful glances at the future if Blizzard does something right with him. And if Blizzard didn't 'give a damn about the Lore nerds' as you say.... then Warcraft wouldn't be what it is, and would probably just be a bad clone of LotR or something similar.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I find it humorous that the only person in this entire thread that shows any shred of reason is Grythek, and is quickly dismissed by rather spurious arguments.Yeah...based on this post of yours, I'll consider the source on that.
In fact, I'm still awestruck by the fact that Lolotea actually believes that Draenei don't look like goats.Because it's not as if a goat is a
real animal
that I might have actually
seen
before—and therefore,
actually know what one looks like
—right?
Come on...really? Really? Good luck convincing people of that one.If you think
this
bears any particular resemblance to a draenei, I've got some bad news for you.
I'm a Lore Nerd, so I'd watch what you say there; I like the Draenei, and tolerate Knaak, not seeing him as the ultimate evil as so many do. I don't hate Varian, and I'm meh on Garrosh at the moment, with possible hopeful glances at the future if Blizzard does something right with him. And if Blizzard didn't 'give a damn about the Lore nerds' as you say.... then Warcraft wouldn't be what it is, and would probably just be a bad clone of LotR or something similar.I've probably given him too much attention already.
And even admitting to tolerating Knaak is probably a bad idea; he can't write...well...a
lot
of things convincingly.
Post by
Adamsm
And even admitting to tolerating Knaak is probably a bad idea; he can't write...well...a lot of things convincingly./shrug, I don't care heh, I like some of his work, hate others of it, so go figure.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
/shrug, I don't care heh, I like some of his work, hate others of it, so go figure.I meant in terms of getting hassled for admitting it. I wouldn't put it past some kid talking smack.
Post by
Adamsm
/shrug, I don't care heh, I like some of his work, hate others of it, so go figure.I meant in terms of getting hassled for admitting it. I wouldn't put it past some kid talking smack.
Oh I don't care lol; I've admitted it often enough on the L&RP board, and even those I consider friends are split on the subject heh.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Oh I don't care lol; I've admitted it often enough on the L&RP board, and even those I consider friends are split on the subject heh.Ehh...I think the kid talked smack and ran away as it is.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh I don't care lol; I've admitted it often enough on the L&RP board, and even those I consider friends are split on the subject heh.Ehh...I think the kid talked smack and ran away as it is.
More then likely.
Post by
Grythak
I'm being respectful of you, and I wish you would reciprocate the courtesy by avoiding ad hominem attacks by accusing me of being a troll.Your idea of "respectful" seems to be at least a few other people's idea of "snotty and condescending."I am not sure how throwing further unwarranted attacks on my character is beneficial to continued civil discussion. Shall we drop the matter?
There's a rather blatant correlation, which has been repeatedly pointed out. You have dismissed it offhand every time.There have been just as many other people on this thread that fail to see a substantial link. Have you not dismissed their views offhand?
However, there's plenty of squawking specifically about draenei. And there's really
not
much squawking at all about Titan magitek or gnomish technology.
In fact, point any of the above out to someone complaining about how naaru constructs strain their suspension of disbelief, and you're likely to get "well, that's different, because it's not
science fiction
crap in a
medieval setting
!" as a responseThere are just as many if not more threads complaining about the industrialization of Azeroth. While there are such complaints about the draenei, I do not think that it is anywhere as bad as you think that it is. Someone occasionally posts something to that regard, but how many times do you see people regularly agreeing with them? Where are the multi-page threads of complaint about draenei? Has the draenei population suffered any as a result? But what is it about the draenei apart from the naaru dimension ship and the "retcon" do people complain still about to a noteworthy degree?
I've seen just as many people complaining that draenei are "zealots" (or even) "
Path of Inspiration
" as that they're "too pure."These are not necessarily conflicting ideas. But I do think that those "complaining" that draenei are
path of inspiration
are likely looking for a way for them to be less pure. Have you not met Mr./Mrs. Perfect? The man or woman who is so annoyingly perfect that you are desperately hoping, and eventually convinced, that he or she is secretly a soul-sucking demon who puts up a façade of perfection?
Well, there
is
the way that you deliberately attempted to needle me in the druid thread...I am not deliberately attempting to needle
you
in that thread. I am arguing against certain ideas and viewpoints in the thread. I argue that gameplay considerations frequently come first and foremost, and that lore can be used to justify
any
race/class combination.
Levixus, on the other hand, is only supposed to have been a man'ari as of fairly recently; he channeled something that he shouldn't have messed with.Do you know the quest that indicates or suggests this? I am curious to read it.
There's Aldar ranting about killing blood elves in the start area, Kessel sending you to impale Lord Xiz's corpse on a banner pole as a warning to the naga, and Kuros
swatting Matis like a fly
because the little bastard
taunted
him. (Bear in mind that Matis had already been sentenced to death. By Velen, no less.) This is all before your character leaves the isles.
Draenei may be culturally
lawful good
, but they are
not
always "nice."Yet Matis was hardly innocent in this matter. Matis performed genocide. Would you not agree that these blood elves are portrayed as far darker than the draenei? Is their "darkness" in this case not overshadowed by the blood elves and portrayed as being justified? Do you believe that the draenei should have behaved differently? Where is the moral quandary?
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