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Post by
Skreeran
Just because you can't 'prove' that the correlation was actually causation? Can you prove to me any causation?I can see causation in action in biology with other things. I can see how Sodium and Calcium move through ion channels in nerve cells, and I can see how that affects the rest of the body. I can see how mutation in the deoxyribonucleic acid of a human being can cause the growth of cancerous cells. I can see how radiation and chemotherapy affect these cells and can be used to kill them in order to prevent them from doing as much damage.
What I can't see is how magic just makes something disappear.
I think you misunderstand. Claims are claims. The Church investigates said claims to validate them before accepting them as miracles.I have higher scientific standards than the church, I think. After all, they already believe in magic. It's no leap of faith for them to believe something magical happened.
Final thought on the matter. As I said, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, so there's no point in continuing to argue.
Post by
Heckler
Just because you can't 'prove' that the correlation was actually causation? Can you prove to me any causation?
No, and this is exactly my point.
I think you misunderstand. Claims are claims. The Church investigates said claims to validate them before accepting them as miracles.
Yes, I thought you were referring to revisiting a case which had already been deemed a miracle at one time. If this isn't the case, that simply means that they made a premature conclusion, or God opened up the clouds and told them he did it (although I will point out that even if this were the case, I probably still wouldn't believe the story unless God also spoke specifically to me).
If faith were rational, it would be cheapened -- It wouldn't be difficult. It wouldn't be powerful. It wouldn't be necessary.
Post by
Monday
What I can't see is how magic just makes something disappear.
Are you ignoring me or something? I have continued to ask you to stop doing that, several times politely, with please in there.
SHUT THE !^%& UP AND STOP COMPARING MY FAITH TO MAGIC EFFING MORON.
Post by
Skreeran
What I can't see is how magic just makes something disappear.
Are you ignoring me or something? I have continued to ask you to stop doing that, several times politely, with please in there.
SHUT THE !^%& UP AND STOP COMPARING MY FAITH TO MAGIC EFFING MORON.Same thing in my perspective. Religious people believe in magic, as far as I am concerned. Sorry if you're offended by that, but it doesn't change my view.
Post by
Monday
What I can't see is how magic just makes something disappear.
Are you ignoring me or something? I have continued to ask you to stop doing that, several times politely, with please in there.
SHUT THE !^%& UP AND STOP COMPARING MY FAITH TO MAGIC EFFING MORON.Same thing in my perspective. Religious people believe in magic, as far as I am concerned. Sorry if you're offended by that, but it doesn't change my view.
/facepalm
Fine, all I'm asking is for you to stop vocalizing that. I believe that all atheist views concerning religion are stupid, but that doesn't mean I have to spout them all over the place. (I know, I know, angry post is bad, I can't help it).
Edit: Well, I don't believe that all of them are stupid, but I dislike the general majority of them, and skepticism on that level irks me.
Post by
Heckler
Fine, all I'm asking is for you to stop vocalizing that.
It's more-or-less central to his debate, I'm not sure if it's fair (in this context) to ask him to stop saying it. It may be easier and/or more proper for you to stop being offended by it.
Post by
Skreeran
What I can't see is how magic just makes something disappear.
Are you ignoring me or something? I have continued to ask you to stop doing that, several times politely, with please in there.
SHUT THE !^%& UP AND STOP COMPARING MY FAITH TO MAGIC EFFING MORON.Same thing in my perspective. Religious people believe in magic, as far as I am concerned. Sorry if you're offended by that, but it doesn't change my view.
/facepalm
Fine, all I'm asking is for you to stop vocalizing that. I believe that all atheist views concerning religion are stupid, but that doesn't mean I have to spout them all over the place. (I know, I know, angry post is bad, I can't help it).They're just words. I don't see how they can hurt you.
The reason I use magic as an analog for religion is because they are both absurd beliefs in... well... magic. Superstition. Invisible, undetectable power that affects our daily lives. I don't believe in either.
The difference is, one is held to be absolute, immutable truth, and the other is seen for what it is by most adults. I like using magic is an example because it puts you in a corner. You can't prove or disprove magic any more than you can prove or disprove God. And just like boiling mummy dust and toad's wart won't affect your life beyond what you force yourself to see, neither will prayer or sacrifices.
Post by
Monday
Fine, you know what, I'm done.
When did this argument turn from do you believe in Hell to "Let's disprove faith healing,"
The reason I feel so strongly about this (and continue to ask for it not to be compared to magic) is because I've had personal experience with faith and prayer healing.
The reason I use magic as an analog for religion is because they are both absurd beliefs in... well... magic.
One other thing, why is it I am unallowed to state my views as fact and everyone else can? (Once again, whiny post by me...)
Post by
Skreeran
One other thing, why is it I am unallowed to state my views as fact and everyone else can? (Once again, whiny post by me...)Who says you aren't? But when you state your views, it's no holds barred, as far as I'm concerned. That's the point of debate. Likewise, you're free to pick apart my views, if you can.
I like you Fund, but when it comes to religious debate, I hold nothing back. Like you, I feel quite strongly about it.
Post by
Squishalot
I can see causation in action in biology with other things. I can see how Sodium and Calcium move through ion channels in nerve cells, and I can see how that affects the rest of the body. I can see how mutation in the deoxyribonucleic acid of a human being can cause the growth of cancerous cells. I can see how radiation and chemotherapy affect these cells and can be used to kill them in order to prevent them from doing as much damage.
All of those things are correlation. You do something, and you observe the situation occuring chronologically after you take that action. Can you actually *prove* that the radiation and chemotherapy kill the cells?
No. You can infer causation, but you cannot prove causation.
What I can't see is how magic just makes something disappear.
You can see the person praying and holding a religious symbol to her breast. You can see that the person who previously had a lung cancer tumour no longer has one. You see them do something, you observe the situation occuring chronologically after they took that action. Unless you disagree with the general facts of the case?
I have higher scientific standards than the church, I think. After all, they already believe in magic. It's no leap of faith for them to believe something magical happened.
Do you have less faith in the cancer research of religious scientists than atheist scientists? You're probably wiping out most research conducted in developed nations. It's also irrational, because you're basing your judgement on a person, rather than the process.
Post by
Sagramor
Prison... death... didn't matter. Because at least in prison and at least in death, you know, I wouldn't be in !@#$in' Bruges. But then, like a flash, it came to me. And I realized, !@#$ man, maybe that's what Hell is: the entire rest of eternity spent in @#$%in' Bruges.
Post by
Monday
One other thing, why is it I am unallowed to state my views as fact and everyone else can? (Once again, whiny post by me...)Who says you aren't? But when you state your views, it's no holds barred, as far as I'm concerned. That's the point of debate. Likewise, you're free to pick apart my views, if you can.
I like you Fund, but when it comes to religious debate, I hold nothing back. Like you, I feel quite strongly about it.
Alright, alright. I'm going to buckle down and actually do something besides whine =P
As soon as I finish playing Starcraft 2 (Woot the patches finally finished!)
Post by
Squishalot
No, and this is exactly my point.
Do you accept most science-driven 'causation' as fact?
I probably still wouldn't believe the story unless God also spoke specifically to me.
If faith were rational, it would be cheapened -- It wouldn't be difficult. It wouldn't be powerful. It wouldn't be necessary.
If God did that, it'd be rational, but it'd still be powerful and necessary.
Oh wait, no quantum randomness must be MAGIC!
@ Skreeran: I'm still waiting for you to respond to this.
Post by
Heckler
When did this argument turn from do you believe in Hell to "Let's disprove faith healing,"
Personally, I'm not trying to disprove anything. Were I to label my stance, it would probably be "Let's stop trying to
prove
that God exists, because you can't, likely because God designed it that way to make 'Faith' something worthwhile. And since you can't, any attempt will be futile, and will likely hurt your case rather than help it -- a
search
for proof implies acceptance that it may not exist."
One other thing, why is it I am unallowed to state my views as fact and everyone else can? (Once again, whiny post by me...)
I think you can, although swearing and calling people names probably isn't required or desired.
Do you accept most science-driven 'causation' as fact?
Provided I can demonstrate the repeatability of the science for myself, yes. But more generally, no -- I think most theories are just that, and are only good until they're proven wrong, which we should always strive to do.
If God did that, it'd be rational, but it'd still be powerful and necessary.
No, it would cease to be 'Faith' and would become a knowable fact. There's no need for faith once you know something to be factual.
Post by
Monday
I think you can, although swearing and calling people names probably isn't required or desired.
I know, I wasn't referring ot this thread specifically. In past threads I would come out and state something as fact, and immediately I would get people saying I was an idiot and it clearly wasn't true. etc, etc.
Personally, I'm not trying to disprove anything. Were I to label my stance, it would probably be "Let's stop trying to prove that God exists, because you can't, likely because God designed it that way to make 'Faith' something worthwhile. And since you can't, any attempt will be futile, and will likely hurt your case rather than help it -- a search for proof implies acceptance that it may not exist."
And I actually agree with this phrase very much.
Post by
Orranis
I think you can, although swearing and calling people names probably isn't required or desired.
I know, I wasn't referring ot this thread specifically. In past threads I would come out and state something as fact, and immediately I would get people saying I was an idiot and it clearly wasn't true. etc, etc.
Personally, I'm not trying to disprove anything. Were I to label my stance, it would probably be "Let's stop trying to prove that God exists, because you can't, likely because God designed it that way to make 'Faith' something worthwhile. And since you can't, any attempt will be futile, and will likely hurt your case rather than help it -- a search for proof implies acceptance that it may not exist."
And I actually agree with this phrase very much.
So you'd have us go to hell without trying to talk us out of it?
Post by
Monday
I think you can, although swearing and calling people names probably isn't required or desired.
I know, I wasn't referring ot this thread specifically. In past threads I would come out and state something as fact, and immediately I would get people saying I was an idiot and it clearly wasn't true. etc, etc.
Personally, I'm not trying to disprove anything. Were I to label my stance, it would probably be "Let's stop trying to prove that God exists, because you can't, likely because God designed it that way to make 'Faith' something worthwhile. And since you can't, any attempt will be futile, and will likely hurt your case rather than help it -- a search for proof implies acceptance that it may not exist."
And I actually agree with this phrase very much.
So you'd have us go to hell without trying to talk us out of it?
Um... what?
I don't see where I said this.
Post by
Squishalot
No, it would cease to be 'Faith' and would become a knowable fact. There's no need for faith once you know something to be factual.
But then, God would be a knowable fact, and while there wouldn't be the need for 'faith' in a literal sense, there would still need to be faith in God, as opposed to any other potential deity.
"Let's stop trying to prove that God exists, because you can't, likely because God designed it that way to make 'Faith' something worthwhile. And since you can't, any attempt will be futile, and will likely hurt your case rather than help it -- a search for proof implies acceptance that it may not exist."
I disagree. We might think that, but I'm pretty sure that if the Old Testament account of things was reasonably true, then the Israelites at the time had plenty of evidence and proof of God's existence, so it's theologically unlikely that God intended for himself to be unprovable.
Post by
Orranis
I think you can, although swearing and calling people names probably isn't required or desired.
I know, I wasn't referring ot this thread specifically. In past threads I would come out and state something as fact, and immediately I would get people saying I was an idiot and it clearly wasn't true. etc, etc.
Personally, I'm not trying to disprove anything. Were I to label my stance, it would probably be "Let's stop trying to prove that God exists, because you can't, likely because God designed it that way to make 'Faith' something worthwhile. And since you can't, any attempt will be futile, and will likely hurt your case rather than help it -- a search for proof implies acceptance that it may not exist."
And I actually agree with this phrase very much.
So you'd have us go to hell without trying to talk us out of it?
Um... what?
I don't see where I said this.
Well you said you won't prove God to us, so naturally, we're all going to hell, correct?
This must be a terrible burden.
Post by
Squishalot
I think you can, although swearing and calling people names probably isn't required or desired.
I know, I wasn't referring ot this thread specifically. In past threads I would come out and state something as fact, and immediately I would get people saying I was an idiot and it clearly wasn't true. etc, etc.
Personally, I'm not trying to disprove anything. Were I to label my stance, it would probably be "Let's stop trying to prove that God exists, because you can't, likely because God designed it that way to make 'Faith' something worthwhile. And since you can't, any attempt will be futile, and will likely hurt your case rather than help it -- a search for proof implies acceptance that it may not exist."
And I actually agree with this phrase very much.
So you'd have us go to hell without trying to talk us out of it?
No, he'd try to talk you out of it, but not by trying to prove that God exists, but to talk you into having faith.
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