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Forsaken Paladins
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Post by
Orranis
To me, Zeliek just seems like a screw up one Blizzards part, counter to everything they had said before. There is more examples of against then for. Also, does anyone know if Zeliek really died? Or is he Arthas style Death Knight?
He's dead; you see it in the Ashbringer comic; they cut him almost in half, but due to the necromancy magic, he comes back; same as Thane from a crushed head and the Lady from a sword in the face. Honestly, if you look at them though; the Lady and he are opposite sides of a coin; she's a shadow priest he's the holy priest, with Thane being a pure warrior, while the Baron is the standard Death Knight heh.
Comic. That explains it... They mess up a lot in comics.
Not really; and Arthas was dead by the time he put on the helmet at the Frozen throne.
But he was a Death Knight after he "slew" Mal'Ganis. Or arguably, he was a lore wise Death Knight after he picked up Frostmourne.
Post by
383367
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
It was probably said somewhere...but this thread exploded before I could get into it...
How does Tauren, who worship nature, and draw the power of the Light through worship of the Sun not go hand in hand? Does the Sun not have anything to do with nature?
Because nature is earth.
Sun=/=earth. The moon could be considered earth as it is locked into orbit with the planet while the sun is off on its own.
Post by
383367
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
But things in nature draw energy from the sun...So would it still not apply?
The sun is known for light more than energy.
And I think there is a druid ability with the sun anyways, but paladins are full time sun worshipers.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
Other than mere "durr static lore" that Blizzard has been willing to toss aside for the sake of better gameplay, there is absolutely no reason for any race to not have access to every class with perhaps the exception of Druid.
Especially considering Zeliek/Bartholomew/etc. Undead wielding the Light DO exist outside of players. If they did not, I'd get the point, but they do. Meaning they can.
Blizzard, however, decided that Tauren Paladins would better serve the game. Meaning that's what we get. Honestly people, you should know this.
Batholomew cannot use the light. I'm pretty sure Zeliek does not make up for every time it is explicitly stated they can't.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
There should not be Forsaken paladins. Forsaken holy priests shouldn't actually exist (or if they do, it's rare). Some sources state that Forsaken can learn to weild the Light, but on the whole, it's so uncommon that lpayers should not be Forsaken paladins.
However: This doesn't mean that they are necessarily evil. There are evil Forsaken. True. There are also good Forsaken. We know this. Just because they can't easily wield the Light (if they can at all), does not mean that they are evil, or subject to extermination.
Just getting that out of the way.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
True, they are not ALL evil, but overall they are mostly evil and this may be perhaps linked to the fact they can't use the light.Many of them can be considered evil, yes.
I still pity them, for the most part, and I really feel bad for the ones that aren't evil. That's the biggest reason I made a Forsaken Shadow Priest RP character. He feels sad for his people, and just wants to be able to live in peace.
Post by
Rankkor
Go look up the forsaken on wowwiki, and you will see their alignment is "evil"
I did, it says "Ussually" evil, note the first word.
paiting an entire race with the same brush is not fair. this would be like saying ALL humans are holy, when in truth they are not, some humans are scumbags, just look at the warlocks, and some rogues..........
same goes for the forsaken, most of them are evil yes, but some are actually quite good, so don't rationalize an entire race based on 1 archetipe, we know life (and unlife) doesn't work that way.
most mexicans love spicy food, does that means ALL mexicans love it? nope, some hate it, some can't even eat it.
then is there not a cure for undeath? and i have never heard of this cure! therefore they are still undead
just so you know, the royal apothecary society DID developed a cure for the earliest stages of undeath, it was putress in the flesh (so to speak) who developed that cure, it can reverse the effects of the scourge plage, but only on the earliest stages, as in during the first hours of infection.
the only reason the RAS hasn't been completetly wiped out after the wrathgate is because other than the blight, they were also working on a cure for the undeath, since..... ya know, every single forsaken starting by sylvannas herself, HATE to be an undead monstrosity.
they aim and hope for one day to cure themselves of their decaying condition (being undead renders you sterile, unable to have kids), they even said upon joining the horde that the shamanistic magic of the horde could help them heal off their decay.
that cure is not yet completed, but it's being developed, and the earliest stages of undeath CAN be cured.
a forsaken more than likely wouldn't devote his whole life to doing good, he would more likely be a lightslayer for the cult of the forgotten shadow and do the exact opposite
again, don't paint an entire civilization with the same brush, most germans were nazis during world war 2, does that means ALL OF THEM were arian-loving bigots? nope, some wern't.
most forsaken would go all MUAHAHAHAHA-villian for the cult, but not all do, it's not imposible for them to devout themselves for good.
Anselm is one such example of one who rejects evil, and the ever-so-mentioned bartolomew leonid is an example of one who embraces good, and he's not the only forsaken to do so, in ICC there's another one argent forsaken who helps ya defeat that valkyr mini-boss.
so again don't paint an entire race as fully white or black, it doesn't work that way, all races have jerks and saints........ exept the draenei who for some reason have a near-total lack of jerks.
Post by
Adamsm
all races have jerks and saints........ exept the draenei who for some reason have a near-total lack of jerks.Because the jerks got wiped out by the giant glowing crystals they befriended? Or you know, a jerk wouldn't survive a 25 thousand journey on a space ship in close quarters heh.
Post by
Skreeran
all races have jerks and saints........ exept the draenei who for some reason have a near-total lack of jerks.Because the jerks got wiped out by the giant glowing crystals they befriended? Or you know, a jerk wouldn't survive a 25 thousand journey on a space ship in close quarters heh.Or the jerks split off into their own seperate race 25,000 years ago? :P
And there's still jerks who become Auchenai, or Eredar (that Eredar in Auchendoun was once a draenei), or one of the ones who still hunt the orcs, etc. :P
Post by
Adamsm
all races have jerks and saints........ exept the draenei who for some reason have a near-total lack of jerks.Because the jerks got wiped out by the giant glowing crystals they befriended? Or you know, a jerk wouldn't survive a 25 thousand journey on a space ship in close quarters heh.Or the jerks split off into their own seperate race 25,000 years ago? :P
And there's still jerks who become Auchenai, or Eredar (that Eredar in Auchendoun was once a draenei), or one of the ones who still hunt the orcs, etc. :P
Heh, there is that too.... but don't forget, the jerks attack their own race as well.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Heh, there is that too.... but don't forget, the jerks attack their own race as well.Just like Grimtotems will attack other tauren.
And actually, I can name at least
one
rather jerkish draenei who still won't attack his own race:
This guy
. He's scary.
Post by
Vaeku
All races have their jerks and saints. Draenei are unusual in that 99% of the race is made up of saints... And that's because the race they split from turned completely into jerks (well, except for Velen).
Going off on this, the Forsaken are basically the perfect antithesis to the Draenei (of playable races, of all races the man'ari eredar would be obviously). Most of the Forsaken (note I said MOST, not ALL) are evil and/or shady, and they harbor no loyalty to anyone, not even the blood elves.
Post by
Adamsm
All races have their jerks and saints. Draenei are unusual in that 99% of the race is made up of saints... And that's because the race they split from turned completely into jerks (well, except for Velen).
Going off on this, the Forsaken are basically the perfect antithesis to the Draenei (of playable races, of all races the man'ari eredar would be obviously). Most of the Forsaken (note I said MOST, not ALL) are evil and/or shady, and they harbor no loyalty to anyone, not even the blood elves.
Well, except for their Queen and each other heh.
Post by
Orranis
Batholomew cannot use the light. I'm pretty sure Zeliek does not make up for every time it is explicitly stated they can't.
Zeliek shows the possibility that they can.
Or else, I will point you towards the Avenger's Shield using scourge in Icecrown. All we have to do is show that the possibility exists. And it does. Whether or not Blizzard explicitely states that "X cannot use the Light", and make things to the contrary, it evokes the possibility that they can (and note I didn't even consider PCs here. Just NPCs.)
Actually, that was just laziness. If you look at the other
spells
they have, it's clear it's intended to be an unholy knockoff of it, but they didn't feel like it.
Explicitely stated changes nothing when they give us examples of exceptions. Blizzard always follows the lore, as they are the only ones who can officially change it.
Not everything in Blizzard is canon. Their unwillingness to re-animate certain things forced them in this situation (because I'm pretty sure they didn't want to make a special ability, with a special name for the Argent Crusade paladins ressurected by the Lich King). They did it, twice.
So long as they don't explain away these possibilities (and in fact, for Zeliek, outright open the friggin' door for them), this debate is moot.
Zeliek was their biggest non-canon mistake. For them to say that they can use the light because of Zeliek would be more contradictory then if they didn't and Zeliek could.
After all, the Forsaken will get Hunters.
We've gone over this. The Forsaken have priests to. The Forsaken have dark rangers, and nowhere in lore do we see a Forsaken who has not lost his/her ranger powers.
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