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Why do I defend Thrall so much? this is why
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Glad someone here at least sees where I'm coming from with this Rank. And I feel the same way, as I've explanned. To make a game and lore like warcraft someone extraordinary, you need extraordinary characters in it. Take that away, and its just another game to me, one I would have stopped playing years ago
Extraordinary is a relative term. Thrall is extraordinary to you, but not to others. Similarly, Garrosh is extraordinary to some people, but not you. It's all in the eye of the beholder. There will always be characters that someone regards as extraordinary in WoW.
So what your saying is, if something happened to Garrosh and he was no longer part of wows lore, then a Garrosh fan would have as much ground to feel the same way I do about Thrall?
Post by
Adamsm
Glad someone here at least sees where I'm coming from with this Rank. And I feel the same way, as I've explanned. To make a game and lore like warcraft someone extraordinary, you need extraordinary characters in it. Take that away, and its just another game to me, one I would have stopped playing years ago
Extraordinary is a relative term. Thrall is extraordinary to you, but not to others. Similarly, Garrosh is extraordinary to some people, but not you. It's all in the eye of the beholder. There will always be characters that someone regards as extraordinary in WoW.
So what your saying is, if something happened to Garrosh and he was no longer part of wows lore, then a Garrosh fan would have as much ground to feel the same way I do about Thrall?
Yes; same as I would if something happened to Velen I disagreed with, same as Darkton if something happened to Varian, same as Delt is something happened to his favorite leader... I could continue, but you should get the point by now.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Yes; same as I would if something happened to Velen I disagreed with, same as Darkton if something happened to Varian, same as Delt is something happened to his favorite leader... I could continue, but you should get the point by now.
Now you say that Adams, but I'm not sure you actully see it from me or Ranks pov. Would you in all honesty not feel the same way, if Velen, the wise and peaceful leader of the draenei, was booted out, and replaced by a thug who, by comparisons, would forgo the draeneis teachings and welcome in warlocks and shadow priests and the like, and make the draenei into a warlike race?
Same to Fun, if Magni was replaced with a member of the dark irons, and brought the ironforge dwarves to following a dark belief instead of there holy one, that would be ok too would it?
So say it, but by comparison, I'm not sure you see where from that pov.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes; same as I would if something happened to Velen I disagreed with, same as Darkton if something happened to Varian, same as Delt is something happened to his favorite leader... I could continue, but you should get the point by now.
Now you say that Adams, but I'm not sure you actully see it from me or Ranks pov. Would you in all honesty not feel the same way, if Velen, the wise and peaceful leader of the draenei, was booted out, and replaced by a thug who, by comparisons, would forgo the draeneis teachings and welcome in warlocks and shadow priests and the like, and make the draenei into a warlike race?
Same to Fun, if Magni was replaced with a member of the dark irons, and brought the ironforge dwarves to following a dark belief instead of there holy one, that would be ok too would it?
So say it, but by comparison, I'm not sure you see where from that pov.
Can you prove to us all, 100% that as soon as Garrosh takes over the Horde, he's going to transform into Blackhand? No of course not, because that is not what happens; he merely takes the Horde away from Thrall's peaceful ideals and brings in his own more Warlike ones.... which is something some Horde members agree with(again both in Lore and Player base). But, I have confidence, the Lich King crap not withstanding, that Blizzard will return Thrall to power at some point in Cataclysm, either after the final battle at Hyjal or because Garrosh does as you two doomsayers are saying; he transforms it into the Dark Horde.
So, rather then worrying and giving yourself an ulcer and high blood pressure, dial it back a bit and don't panic, lets wait till we receive the full information on something eh?
And Tauren... there are Shadow Priests in the Draenei forces, just a quick fyi.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I'll give you all that what you said, except:
And Tauren... there are Shadow Priests in the Draenei forces, just a quick fyi.
Nah, I've never seen an actual draenei shadowpriest within the alliance. Its the same standard as saying there arn't such a thing as holy forsaken priests, but rather shadowpriests, because it can't happen, the rest is gaming mechanics.
Post by
Adamsm
I'll give you all that what you said, except:
And Tauren... there are Shadow Priests in the Draenei forces, just a quick fyi.
Nah, I've never seen an actual draenei shadowpriest within the alliance. Its the same standard as saying there arn't such a thing as holy forsaken priests, but rather shadowpriests, because it can't happen, the rest is gaming mechanics.
You see a few among the Sha'tari forces of Shattrah.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I'll give you all that what you said, except:
And Tauren... there are Shadow Priests in the Draenei forces, just a quick fyi.
Nah, I've never seen an actual draenei shadowpriest within the alliance. Its the same standard as saying there arn't such a thing as holy forsaken priests, but rather shadowpriests, because it can't happen, the rest is gaming mechanics.
You see a few among the Sha'tari forces of Shattrah.
Then offically, not part of the alliance then
Post by
Adamsm
I'll give you all that what you said, except:
And Tauren... there are Shadow Priests in the Draenei forces, just a quick fyi.
Nah, I've never seen an actual draenei shadowpriest within the alliance. Its the same standard as saying there arn't such a thing as holy forsaken priests, but rather shadowpriests, because it can't happen, the rest is gaming mechanics.
You see a few among the Sha'tari forces of Shattrah.
Then offically, not part of the alliance then
So, Thrallmar isn't part of the Horde? They are still part of the Draenei race, who serve the Prophet and the Naaru. Note Tauren I said:
And Tauren... there are Shadow Priests in the Draenei forces, just a quick fyi.I was talking overall, as that's the way the Draenei race is set up.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Actully Adams, I just see it that your were trying to dodge the question.
Post by
Adamsm
Actully Adams, I just see it that your were trying to dodge the question.
How? I mean really, so because they band under the Sha'tari name, they aren't draenei? Does that mean my toons, who are 'champions' of a wide variety of BC factions, are not part of the Alliance anymore?
The only person dodging anything is you; anything that paints Thrall in a bad light, anything that can prove he has a flaw, anything that doesn't make him 'the most exciting, super, awsome, amazing person' in Warcraft as you think of him. I find it amusing you have such a dislike of Darkton, the way you have been acting lately with Thrall is equal to his steadfast defense of Varian.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Actully Adams, I just see it that your were trying to dodge the question.
How? I mean really, so because they band under the Sha'tari name, they aren't draenei? Does that mean my toons, who are 'champions' of a wide variety of BC factions, are not part of the Alliance anymore?
The only person dodging anything is you; anything that paints Thrall in a bad light, anything that can prove he has a flaw, anything that doesn't make him 'the most exciting, super, awsome, amazing person' in Warcraft as you think of him. I find it amusing you have such a dislike of Darkton, the way you have been acting lately with Thrall is equal to his steadfast defense of Varian.
Funny considering Dark is also known for dodging a question he doesn't want to give an answer to.
I'll re-phrash my question then:
What, would it make you feel like, if Velen was replaced as the draenei leader, with someone who does not keep what he taught his people as part there culture, and even pushed them into something that could lead them to disaster?
Post by
Adamsm
What, would it make you feel like, if Velen was replaced as the draenei leader, with someone who does not keep what he taught his people as part there culture, and even pushed them into something that could lead them to disaster?I'd wait and see the entire thing before I start *!@#$ing and moaning; if it continues, and the Draenei are somehow transformed into Man'ari(I'm guessing for this little 'what if' the Naaru are not part of it), then, I'd join up with the Group that would be created to go and kill this Monster and help bring Velen back to his original spot as leader of the race.
Beyond that, would I stop playing because I dislike one thing of the Game? ^&*! no(and yes, the swear is needed), if your going to give up and go home every time the going get's stuff or you find something you don't like... your not going to go far in life.
I've stated several times on different threads that I hate what Lucas did to the Star Wars universe with the Prequels... does that mean I'm giving up my 4th love book series? Hell no, I continue reading as some of my favorite authors pen the books and they can make his idiotic alterations and moronic moves make sense.
But you Tauren, you've stated multiple times that your going to give up the game(and so has Rank)... I'm sorry, but both of you are taking it way too seriously. And before either of you make a comment about my dislike of the Lich King ending; that's because they pussyfied one of the best villains in modern Warcraft and did a complete and utter cop out to keep it availble for a set-back villain in the future(and you can't deny that).
Post by
taurenmoo812
Well then I guess getting $%^&ed off and raging about how they ruined the end of wotlk doesn't compare to how angry I could be to how there going to change the horde into something I don't like.
(Btw, on a side note, you say there are many orcs who want to follow Garrosh's notion of war, fact is, theres also many draenei who would want to kill there enemies on the battlefield instead of striving for peace as Velen would have).
Post by
Adamsm
Well then I guess getting $%^&ed off and raging about how they ruined the end of wotlk doesn't compare to how angry I could be to how there going to change the horde into something I don't like./Smack
You don't know anything about the Changes; all you know is there going to reinforce Orgrimmar with black metal, the Warsong/Sentinel War takes an upswing, A Warchief(and it's still not said which one) sends the Forsaken after the Gilneans for their Port. That's it, no where have they said 'Yeah, guess what Horde players, Your the bad guys again and following a Fel Orc'. That's all stuff you are assuming because you have such a hard on for Thrall and such a hatred for Garrosh.
(Btw, on a side note, you say there are many orcs who want to follow Garrosh's notion of war, fact is, theres also many draenei who would want to kill there enemies on the battlefield instead of striving for peace as Velen would have).No kidding sherlock; just like there are still Theramore people who want to kill Orcs, Dwarves who want to kill orcs, Elves who want to kill trolls.
Post by
Rankkor
Glad someone here at least sees where I'm coming from with this Rank. And I feel the same way, as I've explanned. To make a game and lore like warcraft someone extraordinary, you need extraordinary characters in it. Take that away, and its just another game to me, one I would have stopped playing years ago
Extraordinary is a relative term. Thrall is extraordinary to you, but not to others. Similarly, Garrosh is extraordinary to some people, but not you. It's all in the eye of the beholder. There will always be characters that someone regards as extraordinary in WoW.
actually bro' in this case is not in the eye of the beholder..........
Garrosh fits the sterotype of most orcs not just found in wow but in general orc lore in most common fantasy settings.
by rule of thumb in 9 out of 10 fantasy settings orcs are:
Dumber than rocks, using broken english (ME SMASH YOU) and poor tactics to win their fights.
Dishonorable to say the least, willing to kill children and rape women are but the tip of the iceberg as far as crimes they comit.
Savage brutes, allways willing to take the option with the largest amount of violence in it, it's irrelevant if secondary alternatives yield more profit or benefits, a standard issue orc will choose the violence allways.
rarely pay attention to higiene, luxury, manners, or politeness, being often rude, agresive, narcisists, dirty, crude and well, u get the idea.
Are Always Chaotic Evil.
Are carnivorous, often even cannibalistic.
Have little or no culture outside of raiding/war parties.
Usually have oppressive, patriarchal societies, with females being treated as property
this stereotype was enforced by tolkien's fantasy works, and it's the commonly accepted archetype of orc established in fantasy settings such as:
Dungeons and Dragons, Neverwinter nights, Baldur's gate, Lineage, Dragon Age (in this game they're called "darkspawn" but other than the name these are identical to tolkien's orcs down to the apereance), Might and magic, Wizards of the coast, The elder Scrolls, and a rather HUGE ect.
sufice to say that 90% of standard medieval fantasy settings that happen to include orcs, exibit some or all of the features I described above.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
now let's take a look at Thrall's model of an orc (wich also happens to include saurfang, brox, draenosh, drek'tar, and several other orcish heroes)
1:) Are generally more intelligent than "Tolkienian" orcs, with thrall being an example of a true tactical genius (warcraft 3 manual describes him as such).
2:) Are a
Proud Warrior Race Guys
, with an extensive honor system. this honor makes them less of a chaotic evil kinda race, and more along the Chaotic Good sort of race (with some orcs being Chaotic neutral)
3:) have an animist and/or shamanistic religious structure, as well as a culture of their own, other than the simplistic raid/war skirmishers that tolkienist orcs have.
4:) Are likely to have gender equality or even matriarchal societies. (some of the strongest warriors of the horde are women, conqueror krenna is by no means a weakling)
5:) Are willing to engage in diplomacy, often debating multiple solutions to a problem BESIDES violence, often letting violence be the last resort (at least thrall thinks this way, too bad not all orc officers do)
6:) can show politeness, manners, respect (both for the elders and for authority, notice how saurfang adresses varian as "his highness" recognizing his title of king, and how brox respects tyrande too)
Garrosh by no means is extraordinary, because he represents the standard orc we all know by far.
Thrall on the other hand represents a second type of orc extremely rare in fantasy settings, and as long as he's in charge, there's chance for the orc society to be more like him in the future
of course this hasn't happened in WOTLK because the writters keep castrating thrall making him more passive :S
the Thrall of Lord of the clans would had never allowed the wrathgate/brokenfront/blood-knight feeding of mu'ru/ect to happen,
WOTLK thrall did allowed this to happen because those blood-sucking writers changed him into a passive letargic dumb-dumb.....................
With any luck, the events on cataclysm as well as thrall's return to action will reshape him into the awesome kick-ass orc he was on Lord of the clans and warcraft 3, and "hero of the mag'har".
bottom-line: Garrosh is a "been there done that" kinda orc, Thrall is unique.
Post by
Adamsm
Garrosh by no means is extraordinary, because he represents the standard orc we all know by far. No, he's just an average Warcraft orc, the common ones not the Heroes of the War and the like; of course, for all we know, when they first started out Brox and Saurfang were just like Garrosh, and seeing as Drek'thar begs Durotan to be allowed to learn the new magic the Shadowmoon Clan was peddling......
Post by
Patty
Garrosh fits the sterotype of most orcs not just found in wow but in general orc lore in most common fantasy settings.by rule of thumb in 9 out of 10 fantasy settings orcs are:Dumber than rocks, using broken english (ME SMASH YOU) and poor tactics to win their fights.
Dishonorable to say the least, willing to kill children and rape women are but the tip of the iceberg as far as crimes they comit.Savage brutes, allways willing to take the option with the largest amount of violence in it, it's irrelevant if secondary alternatives yield more profit or benefits, a standard issue orc will choose the violence allways.rarely pay attention to higiene, luxury, manners, or politeness, being often rude, agresive, narcisists, dirty, crude and well, u get the idea.To some people, this
is
extraordinary. Which is my point. Just because you and Tauren dislike the way you think that Cataclysm is going does not mean that anyone with a different outlook to your own has an invalid or inferior opinion. In my opinion, both you and Tauren need to accept that people don't have the same opinions to your own, and you need to respect that.
Post by
Rankkor
To some people, this is extraordinary
=/ I fail to see how that is extraordinary, if you check orcs in several other fantasy works, they are VERY similar to garrosh, heck if you check orcs inside warcraft's universe, they are all similar to garrosh, the only unique atribute that garrosh has, is that he's the son of grom, and as such his strenght is something that can only be described as "legendary", but other than his big muscles he's an average joe.
you tell me where else have u seen an orc like thrall (wheter in warcraft, or in another fantasy setting that includes orcs)
Which is my point. Just because you and Tauren dislike the way you think that Cataclysm is going does not mean that anyone with a different outlook to your own has an invalid or inferior opinion
humm, to my memory I've never disqualified or critizised anyone else's opinion about this subject...... their opinions are as valid as mine.
In my opinion, both you and Tauren need to accept that people don't have the same opinions to your own, and you need to respect that.
addams has a very diferent opinion about several subjecs, wich include but are not limited to : Forsaken, Sylvannas, the thrall/garrosh situation, and several others................... and I respect his opinion, u've never seen me discrediting what he believes, he has every right to think as he does....
I just pointed out that garrosh is a very common orc, nothing remarkable about him, other than his heritage, he's identical to korm/agmar/krenna/and every other typical macho-bravado-chestpounding-grunt type of orc.
whereas thrall is very open about diplomacy, trade, peace, has enough wisdom to admit he doesn't have all the answers, has a calm and cool attitude, and when provoked into battle is a fiersome oponent capable of inspiring the rest of the horde.
is not like I'm automatically asuming that garrosh's leadership is gonna be an automatic fail, I'm simply upset at something that was innecesary, changing the warchief was completely uncalled for.
if thrall was old and wanted to pass the torch to a new generation that is ok, if thrall was a tyrant ruling his people with an iron fist causing pain and strife among his people and he was removed that would also be ok, but if he was doing such a great job (this is before the writer sank their blood-sucking tentacles in him and made him "WOTLK-thrall") why remove him?
here we had a great lead, doing a good job, and suddenly they felt like replacing him for no reason, so they write him off as a letargic dumb-dumb in WOTLK, doing nothing as his people comited barbaric act after barbaric act, just so that it's justified that in cataclysm he's replaced by a new warchief that believes such barbaric actions are the true meaning of being horde.
again, if this is to put some new lore into thrall and he's eventually gonna recover his position as warchief then I'm ok with this, but permanently removing him from leadership for absolutetly no reason at all is unaceptable (he did defended the world tree in war3 without giving up the title of warchief)
if I had to choose from a standard unremarkable orc to lead the horde, or an orc that pretty much has no equal in this world, I'd choose the one that's unique.
so what if garrosh's rule isn't as horrible as I'm thinking it will be? even if the horde is paradise under his rule (extremely unlikely) I still wish thrall to lead the horde, it was an uncalled-for change to remove him in the first place.
is bad to draw conclutions ahead of time, but the few segments we've seen of garrosh's future are very discouraging, starting by expelling the "weaker races" from the center of orgrimmar.
is hard to draw a pretty picture of what his rule will be like when stuff like that get's leaked arround.
Post by
Adamsm
I just pointed out that garrosh is a very common orc, nothing remarkable about him, other than his heritage, he's identical to korm/agmar/krenna/and every other typical macho-bravado-chestpounding-grunt type of orc.
whereas thrall is very open about diplomacy, trade, peace, has enough wisdom to admit he doesn't have all the answers, has a calm and cool attitude, and when provoked into battle is a fiersome oponent capable of inspiring the rest of the horde.Again though, that is due to how they are raised; Blackmoore taught Thrall human tactics and abilities, and more or less raised him as a Human in an Orcs body and he was only recently learning the ways of his People. Garrosh though, was raised as on the traditions of his people, and again, not talking the Dark Horde, I'm talking the original orc's from before the corruption began.
See, even if you want to paint Garrosh as some type of Demon... he's a member of the Warsong clan, not the Frostwolves who had two completely different styles of raising there young after all. So, even if Thrall had been raised by his parents, he would still have a few similar features as being raised by Blackmoore(just without the tactics and other commanding skills), but he would still be different from the rest of the orcs; the Frostwolves were outsiders even among the clans back in the day.
Post by
Patty
To some people, this is extraordinary
=/ I fail to see how that is extraordinary, if you check orcs in several other fantasy works, they are VERY similar to garrosh, heck if you check orcs inside warcraft's universe, they are all similar to garrosh, the only unique atribute that garrosh has, is that he's the son of grom, and as such his strenght is something that can only be described as "legendary", but other than his big muscles he's an average joe.But some orcs view him as remarkable, which is also a synonym for extraordinary. Beyond the ordinary doesn't just mean original; it means stronger or more intelligent than the norm as well.
you tell me where else have u seen an orc like thrall (wheter in warcraft, or in another fantasy setting that includes orcs)That's irrelevant. WarCraft is not Lord of the Rings. Sure, the current general view of the race came from Tolkien; but what you are doing is taking things out of context.
humm, to my memory I've never disqualified or critizised anyone else's opinion about this subject...... their opinions are as valid as mine.Well, I apologise then. It's simply that some of your phrasing makes it seem as though you are.
addams has a very diferent opinion about several subjecs, wich include but are not limited to : Forsaken, Sylvannas, the thrall/garrosh situation, and several others................... and I respect his opinion, u've never seen me discrediting what he believes, he has every right to think as he does....Same as above; but it seems like you and Tauren think that your opinion is the "right" one, and that everyone who disagrees with you because of various different reasons are "wrong".
I just pointed out that garrosh is a very common orc, nothing remarkable about him, other than his heritage, he's identical to korm/agmar/krenna/and every other typical macho-bravado-chestpounding-grunt type of orc.Northrend offensive, even if he has had subordinates greatly helping him.
whereas thrall is very open about diplomacy, trade, peace, has enough wisdom to admit he doesn't have all the answers, has a calm and cool attitude, and when provoked into battle
is a fiersome oponent capable of inspiring the rest of the horde.
Bolded what Garrosh also is.
if thrall was old and wanted to pass the torch to a new generation that is ok, if thrall was a tyrant ruling his people with an iron fist causing pain and strife among his people and he was removed that would also be ok, but if he was doing such a great job (this is before the writer sank their blood-sucking tentacles in him and made him "WOTLK-thrall") why remove him?Blizzard have to spice things up every once in a while to engage people.
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