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Why Americans can't speak (or write in) English properly.
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Post by
pelf
College was definitely the best of times for this stuff. Nothing to do but debate and go to class for directed debate. Well, that is, if you're a Philosophy major
:)
.
I got a few great Greek words from my Philosophy major.
Akrasia -- weakness of will.
Eudaimonia -- good human life (totally chock full of subtle meaning).
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Greeks and Germans, the two best groups of philosophers at making up words, heh.
Well, that is, if you're a Philosophy major
:)
.
Majored in Philosophy, minored in Psychology. Unfortunately, debating on Wowhead has been the only practical use of my degree so far :P
Post by
Squishalot
Heh, how's your efforts to become a teacher going, Hyper? Or is that more of a long-term thing?
Post by
minad
Im confused. Im finnish and i write finnish good and speak good. Why you speak english not properly?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Heh, how's your efforts to become a teacher going, Hyper? Or is that more of a long-term thing?
I'm pretty much sitting around doing nothing at the moment, waiting for my girlfriend to finish college. Grad school is my next goal, but I'm not quite ready to go back to school yet. I'll see what the next year brings before making any long-term commitments.
Post by
pelf
Majored in Philosophy, minored in Psychology. Unfortunately, debating on Wowhead has been the only practical use of my degree so far :P
I knew you were either a debating genius or you had experience. I started as a CS major and switched to Philosophy before I decided that The Church of Reason and I had fairly opposing ideas of how to get things done. Some people look at me funny when I tell them that, but I think CS + Philosophy is actually a pretty good pairing.
Post by
484937
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
Im confused. Im finnish and i write finnish good and speak good. Why you speak english not properly?
Best addition to this thread so far.
I think one of the huge reasons, probably much bigger then a problem with the educational system, but rather with how our society acts. There's this general idea going around that, as retarded as it sounds, 'being smart is dumb.' If I call someone out for saying something stupid in Trade, and I type as I do on this forum (which I try to do as much as possible, as it really helps when it comes to trying to write essays or whatnot quickly without having to do nearly so much proofreading and editing), I'm called a 'grammar Nazi @#$ nerd.' There's the idea that it's not 'cool' to read books or to have an actual interest in science class. It disgusts me.
Post by
pelf
It's funny. I was just reading an article the other day talking about the United States is one of the only countries where science and academia isn't something everyone aspires to get into. The smart people are the heroes and everyone respects science. I wonder what that's like.
Post by
TheReal
How'd I miss this thread? Oh, FFS. I guess I know what I'm doing tomorrow.
Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pelf
Oh I can't wait. I love Stephen Fry. Watching...
Post by
pelf
I think he's definitely right on almost all counts. And, speaking personally, I've relished the learning of all the rules of language so that I can be conscious of the action when I break them. I have, more than once, brought up the very example of verbing nouns as something that is quite easy and comprehensible in English but considerably harder in other languages. There is flexibility in English, due to its mutt nature, that just isn't present in many of the other languages of the world.
I suppose, reading the whole thread, one might associate some of the places that the debate has gone with me, as the OP, and color my words (which may not have been as precisely composed as they could have been, in the first place) with connotations born out of the words that followed.
My issue with what is commonplace in English composition is, most basically, with what that composition belies about the composer. To me, it belies uncaring. Language
is
an amazing thing for so many, uncountable reasons. But the truth, as I perceive it, is that the people who write and speak in the ways to which I am referring aren't doing it out of conscious choice. They are doing it out of ignorance. They aren't choosing to say, as S.F. said, "disinterested" instead of "uninterested" because there's no significant lack of clarity brought about by the selection of one over the other. They do it because they know no better and they don't
care
that they don't know any better. I take issue with this on the same grounds as his first assertion in that video. Language, much like science and academia are looked down upon by United States' popular culture. Somewhere along the way, it became un-cool to be smart and that has rippled out to affect (and effect) many things.
I guess I'll stop monologuing before I determine if you were trying to make a confirming point or a counter point.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I don't know whether to agree with him or not. He seems to advocate a certain 'freedom of speech' without qualification. As weak as he claims the argument from clarity is, it's still better than a free-for-all.
Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The standardization of the grammatical rules of language is a relatively new thing. It only began to form around 1650 and you can really only say it's even had shape for about two-hundred years.
If by 1650 you mean
1586
, and that was the first written grammar of the
Modern English language
. It would be ludicrous to say standard rules of grammar didn't exist before that. The very fact that we can study Old and Middle English and translate the entire corpus of works in those languages shows that a standardized grammar has persisted throughout. Grammar has been part of language since at least the
4th or 5th century BC
.
Also, if you don't like "free-for-all" literature, then by all means avoid Shakespeare, Dante, Petrarch, Cervantes, Marguerite de Navarre, Michelangelo (yes, he wrote poetry), and pretty much anything pre-Victorian. You might even want to avoid Victorian literature as well, because I don't know if grammar order had developed quite enough for you; it might be like eating meat that's just too rare for your taste.
Your silly attacks on me are irrelevant. I've read quite a bit of literature.
You seem to think modern grammar is the only grammar. Just because 16th century grammar was different than our grammar, doesn't mean that it wasn't grammar. All the great authors of all the great periods followed and broke rules for definite purposes. Linguistic rules are as old as language.
Post by
184848
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Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
An etymolgy book doesn't prove that people were enforcing grammatical rules, it proves that people were studying the origins of their languages back then.
When have grammatical rules ever been forced? I know Obama is supposed to be an evil Nazi Socialist and all, but even he wouldn't try to enforce grammatical rules. Grammatical rules are the boundaries of a language that are followed or broken according to use and context.
Edit: And now reading your other post, it's complete obvious you're not understanding the point. You couldn't read anything if there were no boundaries to a language.
AILshbcm aos;hMUADS n I:OH fA:SO Biul NSJILdb ljiB NDL lIJUSHDb hHUSVDUY VBDHB DULSL.
There. Are you willing to agree that the line above is good English?
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