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The Horde needs Thrall, and this is why..
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Post by
HiVolt
As for the new Warchief... beyond 3 things: Garrosh refitting outposts and cities with the Black Metal(which in your eyes is a sign of pure evil), ordering the Forsaken to attack Gilneas, and increasing the conflicts in Ashenvale.... we don't know much about Warchief Garrosh's reign.
I would like to say that outfitting Orgrimmar to be more of a defensible city is not a bad thing. The only thing that comes with it is the symbolism, and that's what matters in the story perspective. The color of the metal is highly suggestive to the tone of the city's rule. The fact that it's black, a color widely recognized as highly negative when displayed in certain ways (this included), only makes it worse.
However, if I were to go to war with the Alliance, the first places I would take would be Ashenvale and Gilneas. They make the most sense strategically. Ashenvale for it's resources, and Gilneas for the strategic advantages. Taking these places is not a sign of evil, it's a sign of being relatively smart when it comes to military command. I say relatively, because a 9-year-old kid with the most basic knowledge of strategy could make the same observation.
The only reason that it's being viewed as bad that Garrosh is making these force movements, is because they're unexpected. Which, may I say, is more than relatively smart when talking tactics. However, we don't even know if Garrosh is making the first move.
We know the Alliance is pushing into the Southern Barrens with the Cataclysm... maybe that happens first, and the tide of battle is stemmed, so Garrosh decides to go forward with the attacks on Gilneas and Ashenvale. That actually makes much more strategic sense than trying to push the Alliance back out of the Southern Barrens. It would put Garrosh, if he plans the campaigns(I wouldn't put it past Saurfang to come up the ideas), on the strategic-thinking level of Robert E. Lee(sans-Gettysburg).
Wow... kinda went off on a tangent. Heh, my bad. But, when I start talking strategy, I can't stop. :P
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
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Post by
HiVolt
Personally, I'm all for Ashenvale being taken, as it showcases the NEs being unable to mount a proper defense.
Which is weird, the Night Elves have defended Ashenvale for 10 thousand years with the Sentinels alone. The druids did nothing but empower them.
A foothold is understandable but taking most of the forest is way too weird, unless it was Kalimdor Horde X Darnassus alone.
It's all about the nature of the attack. If it happened in the way I presented, where the Horde stops the push into the Southern Barrens first, it would be easier to take Ashenvale. More than likely, the Sentinels would know about the Barrens Incursion. That means they would expect the Horde to try to repel that attack and push the force out of the Southern Barrens.
Instead, they stop the push with a small force and push into Ashenvale with a much larger force. Common sense, because common sense is not always sensible, will tell most of the Night Elf soldiers that they don't have to fight for a little while during the Barrens invasion. Therefore, the attack comes as unexpected, and that wins it for the Horde.
Post by
Skreeran
Neither the elves nor the orcs are placing all their power into the Ashenvale conflict. Otherwise one side would have a clear victory.
The way I see it, Garrosh merely rationed more troops to the Ashenvale fight before the Night Elves could do the same.
Post by
autoslizer
Why Garrosh might want to take Ashenvale (or Warsong Gulch to a smaller extend) might be more tha purely a strategical victory; since his seemingly most hated enemy is Varian Wrynn, who fought and won in Warsong Gulch it might be a spiritual victory against his most aggresive foe.
Post by
306612
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Post by
HiVolt
Why Garrosh might want to take Ashenvale (or Warsong Gulch to a smaller extend) might be more tha purely a strategical victory; since his seemingly most hated enemy is Varian Wrynn, who fought and won in Warsong Gulch it might be a spiritual victory against his most aggresive foe.
I don't think so. If it wouldn't be for want of resources and strategic victory in Kalimdor, it would be for want of claiming the territory he believes rightfully belongs to the Warsong Clan. And Varian didn't technically fight in Warsong Gulch. The Gulch is actually just an invention of the game to illustrate the fighting taking place in Ashenvale. The fighting in Ashenvale between the Warsong Clan and the Sliverwing Sentinels isn't just limited to a small valley, it's in various places scattered all over the forest.
Every battleground/PvP zone shares a similar story. There isn't any isolated area that would be won or lost by either side with each battle, all of them would either just be illustrations of fighting that constantly takes place all over the zone(Warsong Gulch and Eye of the Storm), or actual areas in essentially a constant stalemate(Eastern Plaguelands Towers, Alterac Valley, Arathi Basin, Halaa, Strand of the Ancients, Isle of Conquest, and Wintergrasp).
Post by
Patty
Well, this has gone off-topic.
*shuffles back out, trying to avoid the inevitable flaming which has not already occurred.*
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, this has gone off-topic.
*shuffles back out, trying to avoid the inevitable flaming which has not already occurred.*
Not really... the Dwarf conversation was off-topic, but this part here, trying to figure out what Garrosh will be doing in regards to how Thrall would do it.
Post by
Patty
You mean the whole RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE that generally occur in such topics?I suppose. :P
Post by
451455
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Post by
Skreeran
If Garrosh has all this chilly black metal, what does he need the lumber for?You can build a castle out of stone, but that doesn't mean you have enough to make every house in the county out of stone.
Also, you can't burn metal.
And more importantly, if they really needed lumber, there are several other places they could get it from, even place's that are under Horde's command. They could take it from the Lordaeron woods, or thier Stonard heaven. There is even some trees in Barrens.Shipping lumber across an ocean is far more difficult and expensive than floating them down the river from Ashenvale to Durotar.
Is the Warsong clan mainly in Ashenvale for the bloodshed more then resources?Probably both. The Warsong definitely love bloodshed, and I think pride is a big part of it (the Warsong had a job to do, and were attacked by an enemy. No way they're going to run away.), but the lumber is definitely needed.
Post by
HiVolt
And more importantly, if they really needed lumber, there are several other places they could get it from, even place's that are under Horde's command. They could take it from the Lordaeron woods, or thier Stonard heaven. There is even some trees in Barrens.Shipping lumber across an ocean is far more difficult and expensive than floating them down the river from Ashenvale to Durotar.
Not to mention that if they were to take from Lordaeron or Quel'thalas, they would deprive their allies of a much needed resource. Also, the Barrens has probably a total of about 150 trees, and most of those are dead and as dry as the Sahara(meaning the wood is almost completely unable to support a load if cut into timbers).
Post by
taurenmoo812
Well, this has gone off-topic.
*shuffles back out, trying to avoid the inevitable flaming which has not already occurred.*
Not really... the Dwarf conversation was off-topic, but this part here, trying to figure out what Garrosh will be doing in regards to how Thrall would do it.
Thrall isn't even factored into that context since its Garrosh who has the warsong take ashenvale now. The concept has shifted to Garrosh.
As which I'd sooner it get back on track
Post by
HiVolt
Okay, I'll try to re-rail the train.
With Stormwind declaring war on the Horde, the Horde will eventually come under attack. Sovereign nations do not declare war, then sit idly by and do nothing. So, instead of Garrosh being Warchief in this scenario, Thrall remains.
What exactly would he do differently?
One answer is obvious: not kicking the "weaker" races out of the central ring of Orgrimmar.
But what about the others? Reinforcing Orgrimmar with Black Iron: possible. The Ashenvale Offensive: likely. The Unexpected Capture of Gilneas: very possible.
Post by
Monday
I'm not sure Thrall would trust the offensive to the Forsaken.
And he probably would retake Hillsbrad as a sign of dominance over Blackmoore. Kind of a "Look I'm alive and powerful, and you're dead sucka!"
Post by
taurenmoo812
Okay, I'll try to re-rail the train.
With Stormwind declaring war on the Horde, the Horde will eventually come under attack. Sovereign nations do not declare war, then sit idly by and do nothing. So, instead of Garrosh being Warchief in this scenario, Thrall remains.
What exactly would he do differently?
One answer is obvious: not kicking the "weaker" races out of the central ring of Orgrimmar.
But what about the others? Reinforcing Orgrimmar with Black Iron: possible. The Ashenvale Offensive: likely. The Unexpected Capture of Gilneas: very possible.
Thats a very good point.
Fact is, with the alliance declaring war on the horde and the cataclysm ripping apart so much of the resources needed, the horde will be struggling to survive more then before. And in a time when strength comes in forces and numbers, Garrosh has already caused a rift in the horde is making it clear he does think blood elves, trolls and forsaken are not strong enough. This is something the horde needs now more then ever, and what Thrall would do.
The offensive against Gilneas, I suspect, is more a driving force by sylvanas, because even if Garrosh does give the order, its only done as a mean for taking land, and I suspect sylvanas would have arranged this somehow. There is no chance Thrall would agree to push an offensive against an alliance town unless provoked first, where as Garrosh would just simply push.
Thrall would have banded all races of the horde together in a stronger tie. He would have prevented unnecessary bloodshed and pushed for a resolve when the worlds resources are far less, at least on the grander scale.
As for Orgrimmar. If orgrimmar is shattered by cataclysm and needed rebuilding, then that would have happened anyway. But fact still remains the different between Thralls horde and Garrosh's horde lays in what you see of the structures related to them. (hellfire citadel has the same design as warsong hold and agmars hammer).
Its not what the city is rebuilt with, but how its rebuilt.
Post by
Adamsm
As for Orgrimmar. If orgrimmar is shattered by cataclysm and needed rebuilding, then that would have happened anyway. But fact still remains the different between Thralls horde and Garrosh's horde lays in what you see of the structures related to them. (hellfire citadel has the same design as warsong hold and agmars hammer).
Its not what the city is rebuilt with, but how its rebuilt.Except it's built with the same style as the buildings used by Thrall in the Third War... just Black instead of Gray.....
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