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When do you want MORE melee players in raid?
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Post by
Ippon
2)I can't think of a range that doesn't have a big aoe(Blizzard,Volley,Mind Sear,Rain of Fire,etc)
Caster AE is a REPLACEMENT for their normal damage.
Melee AE (in most cases) is a SUPPLEMENT to their normal damage.
Melee Cleave will generally wreck casters on fights with close-range adds.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
1) Melees can run and dps and do 100% of dps at the same time. How many ranged can do that?
2) How many ranged dps can do 100% damage to a target and at the same time do significant amount of damage to a nearby target?
3) Rogues still have lots of hp, not sure about shamans. 1) Generally, ranged won't have to move nearly as much as the melee will. Think fights where the tank has to kite the boss around a room. Melee will have to follow along behind the whole fight (which, though it is POSSIBLE to keep up 100% dps, it's highly unlikely they will as continually moving for that long leaves lots of room for error), meanwhile ranged stands in one spot and turns to keep facing the boss.
Oftentimes, the only movement ranged will have to worry about is stepping out of void zones and such. The only exception I can think of would be fights where the whole raid is affected by an aura that requires everyone to keep moving (fights like Hodir in Ulduar). In fights like that, melee are certainly going to be easier to dps with.
2) How many melee can?
Blood Death Knights have
Heart Strike
and not much else. Anything else will hurt dps. That goes for the other specs as well, except maybe Unholy. Feral druids cannot keep up significant dps while dishing out decent aoe of any kind as switching to
Swipe
even between other things will surely screw over all but the best players in terms of dps. Ret pallies are okay because they'll be
Divine Storm
ing on every CD. Combat Rogues have
Blade Flurry
and not much else. Assassination would have to switch to
FoK
which would certainly lower dps. As far as I'm aware, Enhance shammies have very little aoe in their normal rotation. Warriors should be okay; Fury has
WW
every 8 (?) seconds when talented and Arms have
BS
and
Sweeping Strikes
.
So aside from Rets and Warriors, melee dps isn't much better than ranged for aoe.
3) Whether they have a few thousands more hit points doesn't matter much when the cleave all but one-shots anything with less than 20k armor. Though I'm not sure why cleaves should be a problem unless the dps is positioning themselves next to the tank (bad idea, btw). Not to mention, casters shouldn't ever be hit by cleave unless the tank is down and the boss is running rampant and killing off everyone, in which case, having a couple thousand extra health will be absolutely useless anyhow.
Oh, and...
Caster AE is a REPLACEMENT for their normal damage. Right.
Melee AE (in most cases) is a SUPPLEMENT to their normal damage. Wrong.
Tanks will generally have a few ways to dish out aoe (so that healers aren't going to get zerged every time adds come), but as I pointed out already, melee dps really don't have much more aoe without breaking from their rotation than casters do.
Melee Cleave will generally wreck casters on fights with close-range adds. Which is why it's a caster dps' job is to make sure they
aren't
in melee range. Ever. There will be a very select few times a caster
won't
get yelled at for being in melee range of a boss, adds, or anything else that deals damage.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
From what I've gathered, and this is based off of not "what everyone said" but the right things that were said and other people I've talked to, the following situations are good for melee:
Fights where everyone has a lot of movement to cancel debuffs or avoid mobile AoEs (e.g. avoiding Val'kyr orbs, Hodir), where melee can keep using their instants while casters have to stop casting.
Fights where the enemy does AoE interrupts, e.g. Ignis.
Fights where melee has to stack, because melee usually has 20-30% more threat reduction than ranged (while ranged have an extra 20% over tank before they pull threat) resulting in melee being able to do higher DPS without pulling aggro. Usually a non-issue if you have a good tank, though.
Fights where the mob casts ground-targetted effects on the ranged, with a reason to stay ranged (e.g. Gormak interrupts melee and puts fires on ranged, many mobs will only cast certain AoEs on ranged unless there aren't enough).
(Some melee) Fights requiring interrupts - Rogues, Shamans (enhance makes half the DPS shammies), DK's, and Warriors are the best interrupters. So Pallies and Kitties not as much, but 4/6 classes yes.
(Some melee) Cleaves or ease of switching from single to AoE (warriors and pallies especially, DK's do a fairly good job supplementing AoE into their rotation without much single target loss, shamans can put CL into a rotation fairly easily - although ele can even easier). However, some ranged have this advantage as well (hunters, fire magi, ele shamans in particular). All classes have AoE capability though, so this is just for those groups of 2-3 and maybe 4.
Post by
Silversmith
Melee AE (in most cases) is a SUPPLEMENT to their normal damage. Wrong.
Tanks will generally have a few ways to dish out aoe (so that healers aren't going to get zerged every time adds come), but as I pointed out already, melee dps really don't have much more aoe without breaking from their rotation than casters do.
Melee Cleave will generally wreck casters on fights with close-range adds. Which is why it's a caster dps' job is to make sure they
aren't
in melee range. Ever. There will be a very select few times a caster
won't
get yelled at for being in melee range of a boss, adds, or anything else that deals damage.
1) Hi, I play a ret paladin. I have two AoE moves - Divine Storm and Consecration. Both used in single target rotation. To get even more damage, I switch my seal from Venegance to Command (something that mandates about the same changes of rotation as mage putting up a different armor spell) and automagically hit two additional targets for a good portion of my single target damage.
2) He meant that melee will out-dps ranged on fights with couple of secondary targets located near the primary.
Post by
Ippon
2) How many melee can?
Blood Death Knights have
Heart Strike
and not much else. Anything else will hurt dps. That goes for the other specs as well, except maybe Unholy.
So you mean DKs that are the wrong specs can't do good damage? Who cares?
Every
DPS DK that isn't an idiot is Unholy. Unholy DESTROYS multi-target fights.
I stopped reading your post at that point because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Post by
249416
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
Mages can Counterspell. You could also have tanks do interrupts on single target fights when they have a big lead on threat. There's no ranged disarms, though.
Post by
Monjaru
To Monjaru.
1) I already mentioned 2nd phase of mimiron fight, I can also mention brain room for Yogg. If mim is easy enough even in hard mode (though 25-man without melees will probably fail), I don't think you can possibly do Yogg+0 (and even Yogg+1) without melees in brain. I never said that there are many fights that require such a movement - but there are some. Also there are some fights where ranged have to run around and loose dps while melees can just run around the boss (Thorim HM as perfect example). I never said that it was always either, I wrote that
generally
(meaning, not always) ranged will not have to move as often as melee.
2) Again - please read what I wrote.
I did not say that melees can AOE without any dps decrease.
I said that they can provide considerable amount of dps on target next to boss. All the good DKs are unholy, you agree with warriors and paladins. So at least half of melees can do some extra free dps. o rly?
2) How many ranged dps can do
100% damage to a target
and
at the same time do significant amount of damage to a nearby target?
Looks to me like you outta read your stuff before you tell me that I should read what you say.
3) Few more thousand hit points matter a lot on fights with heavy aoe like Freya+3. Where shaman (I think class with lowest hp in Ulduar) will die, warrior will have 5-6K hp left. Not to mention that melee, and especially plate melee, can take a couple of hits from an add (either Anub, or adds of 2nd boss in ICC) and still survive that. Not that good tanks should allow melees getting hit, but things happen. Yes, but we weren't talking about standard aoe raid damage that can't be avoided. We were speaking specifically of cleave damage, which any good ranged (or melee for that matter) should never, or at least very rarely, get hit by.
In such a case, that extra couple thousand health will be entirely negligible because the only time you'll be getting hit by it is when the boss is going out of control because the tank lost aggro or is dead.
1) Hi, I play a ret paladin. I have two AoE moves - Divine Storm and Consecration. Both used in single target rotation. To get even more damage, I switch my seal from Venegance to Command (something that mandates about the same changes of rotation as mage putting up a different armor spell) and automagically hit two additional targets for a good portion of my single target damage. Hello, Mr. Ret Paladin. I believe I counted you as an example of melee dps who does add aoe damage in their rotation.
2) He meant that melee will out-dps ranged on fights with couple of secondary targets located near the primary. I am aware that's what he meant. It still doesn't make it true. As I pointed out in my last post (with the uber long paragraph about melee aoe spells, or their lack thereof), at least half, perhaps more than half, of melee dps don't have any more aoe in their normal rotation (their max dps rotation) than casters do.
So you mean DKs that are the wrong specs can't do good damage? Who cares? Every DPS DK that isn't an idiot is Unholy. Unholy DESTROYS multi-target fights. Congratulations on your successful avoidance of my argument. I apologize if I don't keep myself up-to-date on the most viable of every spec of every class in-game currently. As far as I'm aware, pretty much every spec is viable for PvE in some fashion, and all DK specs are entirely capable of PvE tanking and dps.
Though I must say you're not making your points any stronger by taking advantage of my lack of know-how on the DK class to skip my entire post. You're only showing you have no real ability to debate this subject and so run away from valid points rather than addressing them.
Good job, give yourself a pat on the back.
I stopped reading your post at that point because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, and lack of understanding of one subject =/= lack of understanding on every subject.
Stop trying to feed your ego, and try addressing my points. You might learn a thing or two.
Also very good point. With exception of ele shammy, none of casters can be assigned to interrupt duty. There are 3 classes that can disarm from what I know - rogues, warriors and hunters. That is a good point. I know hunters have a disarm, but I can't find it for the life of me. As far as I know though, it must be used from melee range, making it near useless to the hunter. So that's two things that are essentially melee exclusive: interrupts and disarms.
Post by
skribs
Hunters have a pet with disarm, can't remember what it is, though. Only melee that can disarm are warriors and rogues, and prot warriors can disarm (reducing the need for melee for that effect). Prot disarm is going to have greater affect than arms/fury or rogue disarm, anyway.
I'm with Monjaru on a lot of his points. This thread is not to say "X melee spec is better" or not, it is to take the generalities of melee combat vs. ranged combat and see why you would choose X over Y. While a lot of melee classes have similarities (e.g. ret and fury both will have powerful AoEs in their single target rotation), those are not traits shared by ALL melee classes. So on a fight where you need interrupts, for example, you dont say "I need more melee" because a ret pally isn't going to be able to handle the interrupt rotation. You say "I need more interrupts."
Your specific class may have attributes which make it better on certain fights. But it is still subject to the limitation of melee range, which is really the point of my original question - why bring melee? While yes it is useful to know that specific melee classes would be needed on a given fight, an arguement such as classes with cleave is an arguement to bring rets and warriors, but not rogues, druids, or non-blood DKs. Similarly, disarm is a valid arguement for warriors or rogues, but not for DKs and druids.
Regardless of specific class issues, for someone to not know what X spec or Y class does doesn't mean they don't understand the greater concept of melee vs. ranged. Don't dismiss someone's arguement because they are ignorant of a class-specific mechanic.
That said, the list I came up with a few posts ago I think is still valid. Melee is there primarily when EVERYONE will be in near constant movement or in melee range, in fights where ranged must spread out to give ranged a bit more room, or in fights where ranged will constantly be interrupted.
Post by
Ippon
Hello, Mr. Ret Paladin. I believe I counted you as an example of melee dps who does add aoe damage in their rotation.4 Melee classes have built-in permanent cleave or low/no cost cleave for massive damage. Two do not. One of those two has controlled full-splash to a single add (useful on some fights, not so much on others).
Thus, 67% of melee classes have splash damage. Fire Mages (who would only be specced that way *because* it's an AE fight) have splash damage. The rest of the ranged classes do not. Shocking, I know.
I am aware that's what he meant. It still doesn't make it true. As I pointed out in my last post (with the uber long paragraph about melee aoe spells, or their lack thereof), at least half, perhaps more than half, of melee dps don't have any more aoe in their normal rotation (their max dps rotation) than casters do. Wow, so 4 out of 6 is less than 1 out of 5+? WHO KNEW!
As far as I'm aware, pretty much every spec is viable for PvE in some fashion, and all DK specs are entirely capable of PvE tanking and dps. In terrible-land, sure. For those of us that actually succeed however, there are correct specs, and incorrect specs.
Though I must say you're not making your points any stronger by taking advantage of my lack of know-how on the DK class to skip my entire post. You're only showing you have no real ability to debate this subject and so run away from valid points rather than addressing them.Was this one where I soundly smashed your points better? Good.
Stop trying to feed your ego, and try addressing my points. You might learn a thing or two. I learned that my original post was accurate and you really do have no idea what you're talking about. Somehow I don't think that's what you were hoping I would learn though.
That is a good point. I know hunters have a disarm, but I can't find it for the life of me.Since I'm feeling generous,
here
. Oh, and it's ranged, so grats on being wrong about that too.
Post by
skribs
4 Melee classes have built-in permanent cleave or low/no cost cleave for massive damage. Two do not. One of those two has controlled full-splash to a single add (useful on some fights, not so much on others).
Thus, 67% of melee classes have splash damage. Fire Mages (who would only be specced that way *because* it's an AE fight) have splash damage. The rest of the ranged classes do not. Shocking, I know.
Feral druids have to switch spells, rogues have to switch, enh shamans really only have 1 splash ability which won't total to much of their DPS, and DKs are going to have to switch to do any real splash damage. So I dont know where you're getting this fact from.
Wow, so 4 out of 6 is less than 1 out of 5+? WHO KNEW!
You're looking more like 2.5 out of 6 vs. 2.5 out of 6. Fire magi, ele shams, and hunters have splash in their rotations. So it actually averages out equal for both ranged and melee.
In terrible-land, sure. For those of us that actually succeed however, there are correct specs, and incorrect specs.
If you're arguing that UH is the only spec DKs should go, you take the splash out of the Blood DK and you're down to 2 classes with a lot of splash for melee. Ranged actually has the upper hand now.
Was this one where I soundly smashed your points better? Good.
By saying "you dont know DKs, therefore you're stupid" or by using similar arguementative tactics, rather than the debate of the facts themselves, you are not conveying a valid defense of your opinion. Debating (good discussion) attacks the content, while arguing (bad discussion) attacks the person. No matter how much sarcasm is in your post, at the end of the day the person with the better facts is the person who presents a better case, and is the person most people who are capable of reading between the lines will listen to.
I learned that my original post was accurate and you really do have no idea what you're talking about. Somehow I don't think that's what you were hoping I would learn though.
I think it was funny how he said to stop feeding your ego and start discussing topics, and all you've done is erroneously discuss his topics and then spend the majority of the post feeding your ego.
Since I'm feeling generous, here. Oh, and it's ranged, so grats on being wrong about that too.
Except many raiding hunters are survival, so they'd have to respec for this; and they usually use Serpent Sting so it's a DPS loss - as opposed to a warrior who can just throw disarm into a rotation.. Not too big of an issue. Although I will highlight you actually are right on this one, although you could have maybe put a little less arrogance into the response.
Post by
skribs
Hmmm...on the subject of cleaves, it honestly doesn't really matter too much except on groups of 2-3, as it doesn't matter if DPS switches to AoE then burns boss or just cleaves...it will require the same amount of damage either way. Whatever does the highest DPS will get through the mobs the fastest, so if that means pausing a single target rotation to switch to an AoE rotation, you would still kill the boss just as fast. This is more subject to the fight itself and how many mobs are present vs. the target limit of AoEs, but overall should pretty much nullify any differences.
Anecdotal evidence - on my DK DPSing with a fury warrior, on a single target I'm roughly 3k DPS (I'm way undergeared) and he can pull about 4k. However, on a fight with adds and movement he was still roughly 4k, but I managed to pull 4.8k. Now, I'm an unholy DK with no cleave. However, switching to an AoE rotation still netted me more DPS than it allowed the warrior as he had nothing to "switch" to. So while the 2 cleave classes make it
easier
to switch from single target to AoE, it doesn't necessarily make them
better
at it.
Post by
Ippon
Feral druids have to switch spells, rogues have to switch, enh shamans really only have 1 splash ability which won't total to much of their DPS, and DKs are going to have to switch to do any real splash damage. So I dont know where you're getting this fact from.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50842
would like a word with you.
Ferals and Rogues are the only melee classes that have to alter their single target DPS in a significant way in order to AE.
Fire magi, ele shams, and hunters have splash in their rotations. So it actually averages out equal for both ranged and melee.Ele and Enh cancel out as both suck at AE (though Enh is better with more targets and Ele is not), Hunter splash is not part of their normal rotation, and isn't that great. Warrior/Ret/DK splash is amazing. Not even remotely close to equal.
If you're arguing that UH is the only spec DKs should go, you take the splash out of the Blood DK and you're down to 2 classes with a lot of splash for melee. Ranged actually has the upper hand now.Again, sup pestilence. Also, sup Wandering Plague.
By saying "you dont know DKs, therefore you're stupid" or by using similar arguementative tactics, rather than the debate of the facts themselves, you are not conveying a valid defense of your opinion. Debating (good discussion) attacks the content, while arguing (bad discussion) attacks the person. No matter how much sarcasm is in your post, at the end of the day the person with the better facts is the person who presents a better case, and is the person most people who are capable of reading between the lines will listen to.I have better facts. I'm also a prick. They are not mutually exclusive.
Except many raiding hunters are survival, so they'd have to respec for this; and they usually use Serpent Sting so it's a DPS loss - as opposed to a warrior who can just throw disarm into a rotation.. Not too big of an issue. Although I will highlight you actually are right on this one, although you could have maybe put a little less arrogance into the response.Bad Hunters are SV maybe. Good ones are MM. This is the same as the DK discussion.
Post by
104412
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
498126
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50842
would like a word with you.
Ferals and Rogues are the only melee classes that have to alter their single target DPS in a significant way in order to AE.
Pestilence is not in ANY of the single target rotations. Using it consumes a blood rune which was used for another ability. Therefore it is an altaration of that rotation. In that arguement, Rain of Fire, Blizzard, Hurricane, etc. are all valid "cleaves" because it depends on how far you take it. All DPS classes have AoE. Very few - and evenly spread between melee and ranged - have it in their single target as well.
Ele and Enh cancel out as both suck at AE (though Enh is better with more targets and Ele is not), Hunter splash is not part of their normal rotation, and isn't that great. Warrior/Ret/DK splash is amazing. Not even remotely close to equal.
So you argue that Enh is one of the meleers with AoE, then say Enhance doesn't have AoE. In this scenario, as we're talking about cleaves, I'm talking about limitted target AoE - as WW, DS, and Cleave all hit a limitted amount of targets. For this, an ability like Chain Lightning works really well, and Ele and Enh can both throw that into their rotations (and, especially ele I belive already do on single target). Shaman AoE has also gotten better by allowing magma totem and fire nova at the same time, something which slightly benefits enh as they are in melee range already - but ele can pump more CLs.
Is CL going to be good against 8 mobs? No...but neither is WW. In that scenario, pure AoE abilities (e.g. hurricane) are going to better than WW, so those melee classes who throw AoE into their rotation will actually be worse off. That's why I said it's very dependent on class and fight moreso than melee vs. ranged. If there's 8 mobs, its gonna be much better to have hurricane/volley/SoC/blizzard than it is to have cleave and divine storm.
Again, sup pestilence. Also, sup Wandering Plague.
Again, pest isn't in the single target rotation. WP isn't a powerful cleave without pestilence. I knew very well what I was saying. If you use pest in a single target rotation you're playing wrong. So either
you
dont know DKs or you are changing your arguement from the conditions you set. Either way, not good debate.
I have better facts. I'm also a prick. They are not mutually exclusive.
You don't have better facts. Being a prick has nothing to do with your facts, however it is a tactic used commonly by people with worse facts to make their "facts" look better. It's similar to the arguement tactic of yelling over the other person so they can't say their side of the story, so you win by being the only person able to present their case.
Bad Hunters are SV maybe. Good ones are MM. This is the same as the DK discussion.
You must be one of those who looks at a spreadsheet and sees Spec A does 8540 DPS, Spec B does 8510 DPS, therefore if you spec for B you're fail. In reality, there are many more factors. While yes one spec may be "better" for the most part its not so much better that someone is "fail" automatically for switching. I've seen plenty of SV hunters that do more than their share of the damage compared to other specs which should be comparable or better.
It's off topic but a warrior can't just "throw" disarm into a rotation. It requires defensive stance which means 2 GCDs to switch to defensive stance and back to battle or berzerker stance, not to mention the massive loss of rage.
Prot. They will be in defensive already.
Post by
Ralin
Some of the previous replies are too biased towards either type of DPS. I think Blizzard has done a good job balancing the fights.
On some, ranged DPS have a slight advantage, for example on Emalon. While melee have to run from the boss to the add, ranged just switch target, not to mention they never have to stop dps-ing to get out of Emalon's nova.
On others however, melee have the advantage, or have an easier job, thus allowing them to do more DPS to the boss, for example XT, where we just keep on DPSing the boss as hard as we can when the adds spawn.
A good raid never stacks too much of a class, sure some bosses are easier for ranged classes, but not necessarily the next boss. It's silly just to pick a DPS class for Cataclysm just because they're the preferred DPS class in Icecrown Citadel or whatever. Just find a DPS class that you love playing, and stick to it. As a DPS, you're here to do damage, not to moan "but this boss is better with more ranged, invite me to the raid!"
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