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Communism Solution?
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Post by
MyTie
By offering rationing incentives, you're allowing the market to determine production. Consumers, the people, will determine how much they demand, and work accordingly to get the incentives to obtain it. We're back to a market system.
This makes no sense.
Yes, giving people incentives to get them to work will cause them to work for the incentives. That doesn't mean that the government has lost control. That doesn't mean there is a market system. There is no tradeing of goods privately. Everything is rationed by the government. Determination of that ration system based on incentives has NEVER been done in a communistic government, but that doesn't mean that doing so would cause it to CEASE to be Communist. That doesn't mean that the government would cease to be in control. That in NO way makes goods worth more, or less, or tradeable against other goods, or in ANY way introduces a capitalistic system of market! Government still decides who gets what, and determines how much more rations a medical doctor gets versus a high school dropout janitor. THE GOVERNMENT WOULD STILL CONTROL THE ECONOMY... THUS.... COMMUNISM! Albeit, with incentives as a tool. Really really really getting sick of repeating this. Just because the economy is community controled doesnt mean it has to be equal.
Communism is government run economy. As long as the government controls that economy, it is communism, REGARDLESS OF WHAT TOOLS IT USES TO DO SO, even if it is incentives. Even if communism uses the same tools that capitalism does, if it controls it... IT IS COMMUNISM.
I promise you... right here right now... I will not repeat this yet again for you. Don't tell me that government control of the economy, but using incentives, is capitalism. A duck wearing flip flops is NOT a surfer... it's a duck.
Post by
Skyfire
The system you propose is basically what happens in Sweden, but with tighter control. The Swedes seem to be happy with it. //personal experience.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The system you propose is basically what happens in Sweden, but with tighter control. The Swedes seem to be happy with it. //personal experience.
If you have time, read these and tell me what you think:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman33.html
http://www.namyth.com/SocialismWORKS
!/index.php?sw=Sweden
I can come up with more scholarly articles some other time.
Post by
Skyfire
And blacks were left in segregation here until the 50s and women still don't have equal rights, and neither do gays... blah blah blah blah blah.
My personal experience (yes, when I say personal experience I mean personal experience, not knowledge) says that the middle class Swede lives the life that you'll find here as a middle class citizen, and there are a lot more people in middle class Sweden than you'll find here.
That sounds like an overall better place than here to live.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
My personal experience (yes, when I say personal experience I mean personal experience, not knowledge) says that the middle class Swede lives the life that you'll find here as a middle class citizen, and there are a lot more people in middle class Sweden than you'll find here.
At what cost?
Post by
Skyfire
My personal experience (yes, when I say personal experience I mean personal experience, not knowledge) says that the middle class Swede lives the life that you'll find here as a middle class citizen, and there are a lot more people in middle class Sweden than you'll find here.
At what cost?
As in?
Post by
Squishalot
MyTie, without getting uptight about it, you're missing the point. I'm not arguing that "it's not communism". I'm arguing that it's sliding away from communism and closer to capitalism. There's a scale between two fundamental ideologies - it's not just black or white.
Time and effort is valuable, and even if you can't put a dollar value on something, you can measure rations worth in the time value that people place on it. If you were offered a chocolate bar for working an extra hour, would it be worth it? What about if you were offered a car?
A capitalistic system doesn't necessarily require the trading of goods and services between people. The trade-off of time and goods, by definition, is a trade, between the individual and the Government. This, by definition, is a step towards capitalism, because even though the terms of trade is decided by the Government, whether the trade occurs is decided by the individual (market), not the Government.
Post by
jefflovealex
Or we accept the massive fact that humanity will always have problems, but we'll drag ourselves along like a hamster with polio
Post by
TheMediator
Uhhh... HSR. I read your first article - if those arguments were supposed to show that government control is bad... it failed, HARD.
In the second article, this
Sweden, like other Socialist nations, use methods to "hide" unemployment figures from staticians, reflecting a "strong economy". Most people on the government dole are changed in status to not be considered "unemployed", for instance, out of work citizens are often considered "on paid leave", or given a menial class and considered "students", or simply conscripted into public works programs funded by the government and given menial labor there. The government's ability to fund the unemployed hides unemployment numbers, giving Sweden years of having unemployment numbers like 2%. This, like other Socialist nations of it's ilk, does not reflect the real life numbers of regularly working people.
Seemed to be the only strong point to me. Which I agree, is pretty bad. Still, the US does the same sort of thing with social security, when they allow someone out of work to receive aid for "disability" (which has very lax requirement after Congress loosened the standards to qualify for disability payments in the late 1980's and early 1990's to boost the perceived effectiveness of their other policies), and they shift they people from unemployed to not in the labor force. I'd be interested in seeing the Population - Labor Force statistic though, to see how big of a deal this really is.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Uhhh... HSR. I read your first article - if those arguments were supposed to show that government control is bad... it failed, HARD.
I don't see mass sterilizations anywhere else, do you?
Post by
TheMediator
Uhhh... HSR. I read your first article - if those arguments were supposed to show that government control is bad... it failed, HARD.
I don't see mass sterilizations anywhere else, do you?
Because that has to do with anything with how effective economically their system is? And bad #$%^ happens everywhere else in the world ALL THE TIME. Oh, and they sterilized them - its not like they killed them. Also, 1934 to 1974 was some time ago relatively speaking. Are we going to say that capitalism is a failure because American soldiers forced prisoners of war to have sex with each other? Of course not.
The whole thing is a lol anyways, the guy uses stuff like this -
For starters, unlike the godless state to which American leftists aspire, Lutheranism is the state-supported religion of Sweden. (Despite this fact, less than 10 per cent of Swedes regularly attend church).
To somehow show that Sweden is "bad". What a joke. ZOMG they don't worship Jesus the same way you do, they're EVIL!
Also, this sorta kills his point about lobotomies -
About 50,000 people received lobotomies in the United States, most of them between 1949 and 1952.
Sounds like the United States was into it just as much as Sweden.. Mmmm.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Because that has to do with anything with how effective economically their system is?
I never said anything about economy.
And bad #$%^ happens everywhere else in the world ALL THE TIME.
That's no excuse to let it happen.
Are we going to say that capitalism is a failure because American soldiers forced prisoners of war to have sex with each other? Of course not.
Soldiers =/= government. You're dodging the issue.
For starters, unlike the godless state to which American leftists aspire, Lutheranism is the state-supported religion of Sweden. (Despite this fact, less than 10 per cent of Swedes regularly attend church).
To somehow show that Sweden is "bad". What a joke. ZOMG they don't worship Jesus the same way you do, they're EVIL!
He's saying most people on the left who point at Sweden and say how great it is are the same people who are for separation of Church and State.
Also, this sorta kills his point about lobotomies -
About 50,000 people received lobotomies in the United States, most of them between 1949 and 1952.
Sounds like the United States was into it just as much as Sweden.. Mmmm.
Considering they performed 3x as many lobotomies per capita than the US, I'd say not they weren't.
Post by
229791
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229791
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
There were mass sterilizations everywhere in the world at that time.
All done by...wait for it....Governments!
Post by
273605
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skyfire
There were mass sterilizations everywhere in the world at that time.
All done by...wait for it....Governments!
Cool story. It doesn't prove the point you want it to prove.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Cool story. It doesn't prove the point you want it to prove.
That governments have too much power?
Post by
160947
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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