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Post by
Eleazer
fmatt, apparently you can't take the time to read Nystali's and several other guys very well-worded and logical arguments. Our problem is there was never a need for this change. DW DK dps is already the top dps spec in end game. It has surpassed blood (thank you brewfast and Onyxia). Blood and Unholy are being swept aside in terms of pure dps. IIT is finally getting the respect it deserves as a raid buff (though this is due more to the fact that most shamans aren't enhance and when they are don't spec correctly). DW scales better than just about anything else. This is a fact that even Blizz has stated.
My problem is there was no need to make the change. Frost needed some minor tweaking along the lines that Ret Pali's and Arms Warriors received that would make them more viable. Instead, because of a large portion of DKtards who were complaining about not being able to DW and pvp QQers who felt frost was OP (which in pvp it definitely was). That and they felt that we weren't playing the class properly by single disease rotations (this was even noted in the previous patch questionnaire).
I would like to hear one good reason for DW other than because I want to and it's cool. I want to be a rogue but wear plate. That's what is ridiculous.
Think about it this way. They nerfed parry haste because tanks were complaining that they couldn't keep up sometime (this was a needed aspect). Then in the next patch they took away all need for CC (this was not needed, and has now made every raid boring). They get carried away way too much when they change things. They same thing happened with 2h Frost, they gave FS the ability to be dodged, parried, miss (this was really needed), they buffed diseases (definitely needed), they nerfed FS itself (not needed and a huge dps loss when combined with..), they nerfed FS sigil (absolutely ridiculous to nerf this no point whatsoever), this brought about the end of 2h frost dps so in order to make up for this nerf due to pvp and people who don't know how to dk. They brought in DW, completely forgetting what happened in TBC between fury warriors and Arms warriors. A brief recap, in TBC you could not raid as an Arms Warrior and do any type of adequate dps. The only reason you brought an arms warrior was to keep shouts up. You even had them spec into improved demo shout because they could take the loss of dps because it's not like they did alot anyways. Fury just scaled so much better that eventually you had one option only when raiding dps.
1. Arms for pvp - Prot at that time couldn't do anything pvp wise.
2. Fury for pve dps - Arms was brought in place of a ret pali however if you had no enhance shaman you brought neither because they were a waste of space.
3. Prot if you want to tank.
Frost is now going to DW, we are now the fury tree, granted every tree can tank, but I can guarantee if they don't buff the other two trees there will be only one raiding dps tree. Unholy will be pvp, and Blood will be tanking or the buff tree. Find one Blood DPS who likes how DW with worse gear can keep up with them in dps.
Recap: There was no reason for the change. The change was made to appease pvpers. DW will always scale better than 2h in pve. If they nerf DW it will still not change that 2h frost is no longer usable due to FS nerfs. The reason Frost Tanking wasn't hit as hard was due to RS being used more often. However, all the ridiculous pvp nerfs that have now killed frost tanks. That UBA nerf is just brutal for tanks.
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356172
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Post by
Nystali
Again I'll point this out:
What would be the purpose of making Frost the DW tree?
I think the answer you keep coming with is: To make it different from blood and unholy because they're 2handed specs. If you want to DW, go frost. If you want to 2H go blood or unholy. Otherwise just accept the fact that you'll be less effective.
That answer has one single fallacy at its core: There is nothing different between all the DK trees. They can all Tank and DPS. They all used 2Handers. DW was brought in to make one tree unique.
But that is not true and this is the point of our argument: Frost is already different from blood and unholy without taking into consideration what weapons are being used.
The closest example to your argument is the Warrior. The warrior trees are all melee, so the difference in their specs is what purpose they serve and what types of weapons get used. One uses 2handers, one uses DW, one tanks with a sword and board. Sure you could DW in arms, but that gimps your dps because the tree is not designed for it to begin with, same with one 2hander in fury. And sure you could tank in any of the trees, but your abilities are gimped if not in prot.
You're trying to compare how the warrior trees are setup to the DK trees when that is very far from the true.
Like I said in a previous post, which you didn't quote: the blood tree is mainly melee based, the frost tree is frost based, the unholy tree is unholy based. That is the key difference between the trees. Not what type of weapon is used.
It is this difference between the trees that players base their spec upon (except FOTM rollers who are looking for the best dps they can faceroll with). As an example, you quoted my initial plans for when I rolled a DK. It was going to be a DW Frost Tank. Well, DW tank didn't work, but I stayed frost. Why did I stay frost? Because that was the tree and subset of spells that I liked the best.
Now you could use that argument against me right now. "Why not stay frost though you will now have to DW?" Guess what? I have already. My dps spec is still 2H frost. What I don't like is the fact that 2H Frost is getting left behind/neglected/etc. just because they arbitrarily decided that frost was gong to be strictly DW for
effective play
.
Our argument is not that DW shouldn't exist. Its that
DW to be effective
should not be forced upon a tree that is already different from the other trees
based upon a different spell-class of abilities.
What makes HB inherently DW?
What makes OB inherently DW?
What makes FS inherently DW?
What makes IT inherently DW?
What makes HC inherently DW?
What makes FF inherently DW?
Mind Freeze?
Chains of Ice?
Improved Icy Talons?
Unbreakable Armor?
Answer is nothing. Nor are they inherently 2H.
The only thing in the frost tree that is inherently DW is NoCS and ToT. And those two abilities are there to make DW legit and not the joke it was in the beginning. Those should not be there to turn the frost tree into DW to be effective only, like they are on the verge of doing (and already have for DPS).
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Post by
Eleazer
Items
* Death Knight Tier-9 4-Piece Bonus: This set bonus no longer grants Frost Fever a chance to be a critical strike. It still grants that possibility to Blood Plague.
This !@#$es me of off. The T9 4pc bonus is already weak, now it's just pointless.
It's an attempt to nerf Frost so it doesn't crush Blood spec dps. Unfortunately it's the most ridiculous thing I have seen Blizzard do yet. The problem is DW itself and not The disease crits.
@Dengar - That change makes Frost an avoidance tank now and completely eliminates any chance of 2h Frost tanking staying competitive. With it at 1/2 instead of a serious nerf to it, there is no need to go 2h Frost tank - they already nerfed UBA where it's effectiveness is almost nil while main tanking. Now they took our one advantage over DW and handed it over to DW.
Just as a recap - Frost tanks are no longer able to keep up mitigation wise with either Unholy or Blood, due to the many nerfs to our very nice cooldowns, so we are now avoidance DW tanks (this is something every healer hates because of spike damage). 2h Frost is dead and with the recent change. DW will soon surpass any tank spec in terms of threat generation and avoidance. The only way to offset the amazing amount of nerfs to Frost tanking is to go DW to bump up the avoidance. This is just getting ridiculous. Thank you Blizzard, for screwing up what was the greatest tree and most fun I ever had raiding with a class. Good bye Howling Blast and FS crits, Good bye any ability to mitigate damage without getting large spikes. Good Bye cool 2h tanking. Good Bye any sort of viable tanking spec that is fun. First unholy was destroyed now Frost is destroyed. Blood will be next. I see the future now, DK tanking will be laughed at as nothing more than a joke for a tanking class and we will be nothing more than DPS. /End cynicism
I am at the point where I want to give up on a class that has seen a million nerfs and changes to it since it's inception. Every nerf and change that has been tossed on this class has been pvp related, except a few much needed tanking nerfs because we were overpowered, but the amount of nerfs and changes that have been tossed on us is ridiculous. Is death grip annoying pvp? Beyond a doubt, but so is being stunlocked by a druid/rogue combo for your entire health bar. Is CoL annoying? yes, but Typhoon is about a thousand times worse, and I hate blink too. Are DK's hard to kill? Absolutely and they can 2 shot you which makes them tougher, but Paladins and warriors are just as tough to kill, and I can't clear the bleeds of a warrior. Did they need some nerfs? Absolutely we did, but these most recent changes have pushed me to the point where I am ready to just give up on a class that's being nerfed worse than a Ret Paladin in TBC.
@mittoo - Your an idiot. thanks for posting
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