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Varian tried, or at least threatened, to kill a child. Is he consumed with revenge?
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Post by
Skreeran
It's better than having a leader who can't command his own men and lets a rash idiotic brainless red-skinned warmonger who let's his axe think for him push him around and just tell him I expect you not to do that again, or no garosh no!
I don't know about you but having a leader with a very minor anger problem which is justified is much better than ahving an idle king who just watches how much of a threat garrosh is instead of demoting him or mabye something as simple as not taking him to meeting anymore.
then again taurenmoo you and me are both very biased sources favoring our faction1. Don't insult Thrall. Have you read Lord of the Clans? He's really is a fantastic leader.
2. You're one to talk about faction bias, Vgk, the Horde slayer.
Post by
Adamsm
I don't know about you but having a leader with a very minor anger problem
Very minor? You just mention the word Orc and he goes into a rage. Look I like Varian, or atleast what Varian could be if they got rid of the anger and rage, but I sure wouldn't call Thrall useless. Most of what Blizzard has done lately with all three of them; Thrall Varian and Garrosh is idiotic. They should stop trying to play to the PVP'ers and the like and actually focus on their real lore instead of what warmonger's and people who think ganking is fun wants.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
You're one to talk about faction bias, Vgk, the Horde slayer.
did you finsih that sentence I said
then again taurenmoo you and
me
are
both
very biased sources favoring
our
faction
I admit I'm biased but that's due to my gaming experience while levling up and with my friends and I accept it
Yes I've read lord of the Clans yes thrall is leet and the way blizz is making him now is not correct but that's what thrall is now being a leader is a full time job if you single handedly killed sargeras for good it doesn't matter if 5 years from then you can't fullfill your responsibilities as a leader and for your people.
if you disagree with me say so
don't get me wrongThrall is one of the few Horde I sympathize with and do not RP against him instead I show some respect for him. but he is being idle at the moment and that is not something a good leader should do
Everything your saying is from a stand alone alliance fan point of view. Theres little more to say on it but that. Even if overwelming evidense were placed in front of you its likely your deny it and run back to crossroads to kill lowbies.
Post by
138638
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Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
138638
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Everything your saying is from a stand alone alliance fan point of view. Theres little more to say on it but that. Even if overwelming evidense were placed in front of you its likely your deny it and run back to crossroads to kill lowbies.
I'm Horde and I agree. Thrall isn't the same as before, maybe he changed after many years of leadership but thats no excuse. The Thrall I once knew from Warcraft III would have kicked Garrosh's ass by now.
what else has he done that would change my opinion on Varian tell me?
Well, if you look at it: Varian has ignored Dalaran, Tirion, Jaina, Alextrasza, probably Velen, the Naaru's obviously positive opinion on the Horde, the fact that Undead and Blood Elves joined the Horde (if they didn't believe the Horde changed somehow they wouldn't, they would be better alone)and much more.
His hatred is justified, that's true. In fact we've discussed this before. But, it came to a level where its simply stupid.
And all Varian fans have to constantly spam 'His hatred is justified' like them trying to hold up a wall thats falling on them.
And your right, even when more intelligent people, like Jaina, dalaran, Velen, Alexstrazsa and Brann Bronzebeard, all have worked with the horde for a greater outcome, he cannot put his old grudges aside and behaves the same as Garrosh. The only difference is he has a some reason to act the way he does unlike Garrosh, but that doesn't mean its even justified to act like a pompous jackass when the undead, burning legion and old gods are beating down your door.
Try to justify it as much as you like, but its the alliance now where are acting like the irrational ones, those following Varians code of conduct.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Skreeran
Well, some people might consider open warfare more fun...
Me, I'm too invested into it. I can only imagine Nakresh and his daughter and how the Alliance wants to kill them both. The pointless war just makes me sad.
Post by
taurenmoo812
The thing is: Varian's hate was as justifiable as that of a old man who lost his home during the First War. But its only justifiable to an extent.
But of course, if they made Varian consider what, Alextrasza and more says about the Horde... things wouldn't be fun would they =D?
In a game like warcraft, everything has to be balanced evenly. If its not and one side has an advantage over the other side, then it becomes unfair to a game that pretends to balance things out.
Warcraft has gone from a roleplaying based game of good guy vs bad guy, to a game of both sides being grey and being good or bad regardless of the other sides belief.
So I'm inclinde to agree, well it would be boring otherwise, you can't give one side more then the other, otherwise its not fair sport. It be like having one football team with 12 highly trained player, and another team with only 4 untrained players.
Post by
138638
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Post by
taurenmoo812
ya I'll give you this much Varian is going a bit overboard wtih his anti-Hordness
but I'd like to discuss recent events and not past events and see if theres any chance he might turn around or is becoming a bit more tolerant compared to the past.
recent = WOTLK
Well talking in the present then, here we are at the argent tournament, and with Jaina and Varian appear, both he, and Garrosh, and two sorts of people who both say the tournament is pointless. He blantently then calls the horde savages and shows contempt for them in the arena. Jaina on hand to show her support, being someone to give support to her own people, but also to still hostility as best she can.
Garrosh and Varian are in the same boat, from the way their talking across the stands at each other. If you want to put aside what you know about either of them or there pasts, wouldn't you simple see them as both the agressors, well Jaina and Thrall there as a positive thing?
On that too, the argent tournament is meant to be able both sides coming together, that was Tirions plan all along in the final battle against the lich king, and yet the hostilites of both Varian and Garrosh in the argent grounds, they are so far the only ones to show such hostilties.
Post by
Adamsm
In a game like warcraft, everything has to be balanced evenly. If its not and one side has an advantage over the other side, then it becomes unfair to a game that pretends to balance things out.
Warcraft has gone from a roleplaying based game of good guy vs bad guy, to a game of both sides being grey and being good or bad regardless of the other sides belief.
So in that ideal, which is the good and which is the bad Taurenmoo? Cause in your mind, the Horde is good and the Alliance is evil, while in Vgk's, Alliance is good Horde is evil.
This is the entire point of Warcraft, the MMO, if you want cut and dried, Good Vs Evil, go back and play Warcraft 1 and 2, but don't cry when you realize that the Horde, lead by Blackhand and Gul'dan is evil, and the Alliance is good.
In a game like this, you can't force one faction into your own view of what is good and evil, myself I see it as simple: Horde/Alliance Good, Old Gods/Lich King/Legion/non-Horde Troll races etc etc, are the Evil.
Post by
taurenmoo812
In a game like warcraft, everything has to be balanced evenly. If its not and one side has an advantage over the other side, then it becomes unfair to a game that pretends to balance things out.
Warcraft has gone from a roleplaying based game of good guy vs bad guy, to a game of both sides being grey and being good or bad regardless of the other sides belief.
So in that ideal, which is the good and which is the bad Taurenmoo? Cause in your mind, the Horde is good and the Alliance is evil, while in Vgk's, Alliance is good Horde is evil.
This is the entire point of Warcraft, the MMO, if you want cut and dried, Good Vs Evil, go back and play Warcraft 1 and 2, but don't cry when you realize that the Horde, lead by Blackhand and Gul'dan is evil, and the Alliance is good.
In a game like this, you can't force one faction into your own view of what is good and evil, myself I see it as simple: Horde/Alliance Good, Old Gods/Lich King/Legion/non-Horde Troll races etc etc, are the Evil.
What even made you assume I thought one side of evil and the other side was good, didn't you read by post clearly enough? I quite obviously said the way the horde and alliance work now is based on shards of grey, that its Not evil horde of the past against the rightous alliance, but a different story altogether now.
Don't criticize me when I make the point you just made yourself already.
Post by
166613
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Post by
Morec0
Varian dosn't think things through, he looks to the past too much, much like Admiral Proudmoore did.
Lets hope that the King of Stormwind meets a similar fate.
Post by
Adamsm
Nah, Varian can be good, once Blizzard finally get's him past this whole "Revenge!" kick. Proudmoore was an arse pure and simple...... though he did have reasons as well, after all, the Horde killed his son... man that sounds familiar. But yeah I know, I'm hoping Garrosh dies early in Cataclysm and Varian get's an epithony and realize's he's just messing things up.
Post by
Morec0
Don't count on it man.
Personally, I think it was better when the kid was running things.
Man,
that
says something about Varian's leadership skills, dosn't it?
Post by
Skreeran
I believe the statement was 'consumed by revenge'. And this is based on Varian's reaction to the person who murdered his father.
Yes, I know that in lore, Garona is so mind-controlled she can't be held accountable for her actions. But still; she murdered Varian's father. It would be very hard for anyone to be completely rational in their statements in such a situation.Indeed. You could say he's justified in his rage against Garona. But she's not the only one he threatened. He threatened to kill a child who saved his son. I don't care who's child it is, that would be wrong.
(And if Garona is that controlled, it can be argued that killing her would be the equivalent of destroying a harvest reaper; not really 'murder' at all.)That's pretty harsh, man. Especially considering she's not always being controlled.
Yes, Varian hates orcs; but he's been given reason to, not just in his past, but recently. The evidence is that Thrall, despite his admirable personal qualities, cannot control the actions of the Horde. (cf. Wrathgate) And that important leaders in the Horde want a full-out war (cf Garrosh). None of this lends to any reason to trust Orcs, or the Horde.So if a black person killed my parents I'm justified in hating black people? He needs to understand that they're not just "beasts" or "savages" or "dogs" or "pigs" as he loves to call them. They are people, just as he is. Garrosh needs to learn this lesson as well.
Now, if Varian suddenly starts actually murdering helpless children (rather than making rash statements) then 'consumed by revenge' might be a valid assessment.Indeed, although I could see something to that extent happening if war broke out. I doubt he'd pull any punches in a war, just as the orcs didn't in the first/second war. He's a lot more orc than he realizes, I think.
But of course that is merely my opinion.
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