This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Patch 3.2.2 PTR Paladin Patch Notes
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
ArgentSun
Stop the flame.
Post by
zoomie
After this thread I decided to leave. I went to main tankadin and looked up the threads that actually showed that agility was better than dodge, and posted it here and people are still arguing that I'm wrong. But while I was at main tankadin, I looked up the thread on algalon. I read what a lot of people posted about algalon and their kills and their attempts. Reading a thread that was made by people on my same level of skill and intelligence, it made me realize I am wasting my time on wowhead. It made me realize that I am in fact far better than anyone in this forum. On main tankadin I can talk with other people who have a very deep understanding of the game and the mechanics, and on wowhead I can sit here and talk with people who don't even know how to spell the word paladin. The simple fact that there is an agility vs dodge rating thread on main tankadin is a big red flag that they are both different, but nobody here understands that. I am sitting here saying 2 + 2 = 4, while everyone else here seems to think that 2 + 2 = 3. It makes a lot of sense though, it helps explain why everyone that goes to wowhead forums for help ends up dumber. I'm done banging my head against a wall.
For those of you who think this is me being defeated in the argument and leaving, this is me saying I'm done banging my head against a wall trying to describe common sense to a bunch of brainless idiots.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
havtor
After this thread I decided to leave. I went to main tankadin and looked up the threads that actually showed that agility was better than dodge, and posted it here and people are still arguing that I'm wrong. idiots.
this is your problem "looked up the threads that actually showed that agility was better than dodge,"
yes if you had readed what it actualy what ppl did say you wud know that we do know at some point agi is better then dodge BUT it is NOT the dodge componet of agi so makes it betetr it is the armor and crit components with the dodge so is. tho i dont belive you can get so bad DR on dodge that the armor and the crit acutaly wud be better.
if you are going to go tomantankadin atlist read what it says.
ok il stop flame now just makes me littel angry when even i know this and im not claming anything
Post by
Squishalot
Ok, does anyone mind if I step in as a neutral arbiter? Yes? Good, tough luck.
TL;DR: the three of you should stop arguing and get to the point - you all agree on what's the case now, and you're arguing over something that was the case in the past. Get over it, all of you.
Reading a thread that was made by people on my same level of skill and intelligence, it made me realize I am wasting my time on wowhead. It made me realize that I am in fact far better than anyone in this forum.
zoomie - I hate to point this out to you, but the whole flame war started off from a misunderstanding from you. I've just looked back through the last couple of pages, and it basically stems from you acting extremely defensive to svirve and arguing over something sidetracked from your original point, despite the fact that he agreed with the comments made on maintankadin which you were exhorting.
All you had to do was set svirve straight about his preconception that you hadn't been on since 3.0 was released and move on. He agreed with your comment on dodge/agility DR and even went so far as to say that it's more likely with 3.2. But instead, you resorted to petty insults. Such behaviour suggests that you are indeed wasting your time on wowhead, but also demonstrates that you don't have the superior level of intelligence you claim you have, and are certainly not the 'better' person.
The only point where agi>dodge is where the DR are that bad that the additional armor from agi makes up for the lost dodge, you'll NEVER get more dodge from agi than from dodge rating. How hard is it for your birdbrain to understand?
The insult aside, this statement is moreorless correct. It's even backed up by the quote from Maintankadin before:
"Absolutely speaking, the more dodge you already have (and thus the harder diminishing returns hit), the less dodge you'll "lose" from using agility over dodge and then the extra armour and crit start looking interesting."
This quote implies that you're always going to lose dodge by swapping to agility gems, but the gem swap is better because you get the extra mitigation and threat.
I'll follow up with another quote from the same thread quoted:
The bottom line is: If you're trying to fill red sockets then agility/stam gems provide the most EH, dodge/stam gems provide the most avoidance, and it really depends on alot of factors which provides the most mitigation.
So going back to the original comments (minus the flaming):
I don't know the exact number but a 10 agility/15 stam gem is only about .03% - .05% less dodge than a 10 dodge/15 stam, depending on where you are at with diminishing returns.
Since you're so pure awesome juice, you do know that the dodge gained from agi suffers from the same DR that dodge from rating does?
I haven't been able to get on since a few days after the patch released, but before the patch there was a point where gemming for agility gave more dodge than dodge rating. Even if dodge and agility give the same dodge now, if you have really high dodge you will get more bang for the buck with agility gems because of the increased crit and armor.
You know that the patch you're refering to is called 3.0. When DR was introduced to avoidance stats it was also introduced to the dodge gained from agility.
Before the most recent patch, there was a point that you could be at where gemming for agility gave you more dodge than dodge rating. Yes agility suffered from diminishing returns, but if you had an assload of dodge then you would get MORE from agility because the diminishing returns on agility wern't as bad as dodge.
Since dodge gained from agility suffers from the exact same DR that dodge from rating does it's impossible to gain more dodge from agility than from rating. Just because you always need more agility than dodge rating to get 1% dodge.
It wasn't always like that. Dodge and agility both suffered from DRs, but they were different... Dodge rating and agility are two totally different things, with two totally different diminishing returns.
So irrespective of the flaming, it's clear that everyone is OK on what the current state of dodge vs agility is in 3.2. What you guys are now arguing about is the state of affairs prior to 3.2, and so far, svirve and Dobbel believe that the dodge from agi and dodge rating sat on the same DR prior, and zoomie believes that they sat on different DRs (similar to dodge/parry).
The problem is that zoomie is arguing about the past, and Dobbel at least is still focused about the present.
So far, the quotes from Maintankadin haven't suggested anything about DRs prior to 3.2. So with that in mind, go find a quote somewhere that suggests that DRs used to be different, rather than say you've quoted from Maintankadin, because it's not relevant.
The guys at Maintankadin aren't any smarter or dummer than anyone else. In fact, a few of the guys here (like Dobbel and Quest, for example) hang around on both boards. They've got a good understanding of what's current, because they go out and run tests and model it. The process svirve and I used to create our Protribution spreadsheet and stat weightings is exactly the same process that the guys there used to create their Excel spreadsheets, and the same process that Theck uses in Matlab to create his stat weightings, only they have a lot more time to spend on it and more people to help make it work.
Post by
zoomie
Such behaviour suggests that you are indeed wasting your time on wowhead
I got nothing better to do. But to be fair I origionally started flaming people who thought that the change to touched by the light was going to be a major AOE TPS nerf.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
322291
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ArgentSun
Alright, so I've let this thread run loose for far too long. I am going on rampage with the delete button from now on.
And to all of the people who lead "discussions" here - provide links to your sources, or show your math. "Agility is better than dodge" without evidence behind it is, pardon my language, full of crap. So is "Dodge is better than agility" without source too, by the way.
Post by
Squishalot
Does that mean that those of us who
follow
"discussions" don't need to provide links or show math? ^^
... I'm kidding, I'm kidding!
In all seriousness though, making general statements is fine, as long as people don't draw the line in the sand and stamp their foot and jump up and down over it. I know that I've needed to make general statements without providing math or links, but I'll do so when I'm challenged on it.
Agility *is* better than dodge at high levels of dodge % though, due to the DR effects. That, I still maintain, is the problem with Rawr and any form of stat weighting, since it only looks at the 'next stat point' effect (edit: for a given gearset), rather than looking holistically at where you are. If you generate a set of weightings for an end-game raider, it's not going to apply to a Heroic tank, who still does need to stack Dodge.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Agility *is* better than dodge at high levels of dodge % though, due to the DR effects.
Tsk, tsk. Where's your sourcey-wourcey? xD
Post by
Squishalot
Agility *is* better than dodge at high levels of dodge % though, due to the DR effects.
Tsk, tsk. Where's your sourcey-wourcey? xD
I provided the math! xP by definition, agility gives you armor when dodge DR goes to zero, so it has to occur at some high level of dodge ;p
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Agility *is* better than dodge at high levels of dodge % though, due to the DR effects.
Tsk, tsk. Where's your sourcey-wourcey? xD
I provided the math! xP by definition, agility gives you armor when dodge DR goes to zero, so it has to occur at some high level of dodge ;p
Ah but here's the question for you, is dodge DR on a linear curve that will hit 0, or is dodge on some sort of limit curve that will keep getting closer and closer to 0 but never hit it? 'Cause I was under the impression that it was the latter.
Post by
Squishalot
I believe it is the latter (no source), but at some point, you will either get effectively zero (in which case, agi is better, since any limit curve that continually approaches zero must pass through any fixed number - so at some point, the dodge you get is so close to zero that the armor mitigation is better, and this bracket is too long), or you'll hit 100% dodge (in which case, agi is definitely better).
Post by
havtor
I believe it is the latter (no source), but at some point, you will either get effectively zero (in which case, agi is better, since any limit curve that continually approaches zero must pass through any fixed number - so at some point, the dodge you get is so close to zero that the armor mitigation is better, and this bracket is too long), or you'll hit 100% dodge (in which case, agi is definitely better).
From those twinks i have talked to it seems dodge wont ever go higher then 75% ofc this might not be true but it is what i have heared
Post by
ArgentSun
MainTankadin is down... :(
I know I have seen the math for all this.
Post by
ArgentSun
Been thinking about Seal of Command. Doesn't Crusader Strike trigger Seal proc? And Judgement? Which means Command will proc off those two spells, no?
Post by
havtor
the only think we truly know its not going to proc off is aoe attacks so will say so i havent tested on ptr however but it shude work on those melee attacks
Post by
svirve
Been thinking about Seal of Command. Doesn't Crusader Strike trigger Seal proc? And Judgement? Which means Command will proc off those two spells, no?
From what i can make of the patch notes, it'll proc of both of those yes.
Post by
Squishalot
Been thinking about Seal of Command. Doesn't Crusader Strike trigger Seal proc? And Judgement? Which means Command will proc off those two spells, no?
From what i can make of the patch notes, it'll proc of both of those yes.
Agreed. Specifically, it doesn't proc of 'multi-target attacks', implying that any other melee attack (Crusader Strike, Judgement, but not Shield of Righteousness) will proc.
"proc off aoe attacks" - could you imagine if it actually proc'd of all AoE attacks, including Consecrate? xD
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.