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DW Frost DPS - Blowing Up the Competition One Obliterate At A Time
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Post by
Zzeeuuss
By Raulnor 20 hr 55 min ago (Patch 3.2.2)
The main reason UH DPS is pulling the best DPS in the endgame with BiS gear is because of how well the 4pT9 bonus works with the Unholy talents. Once they nerf the bonus in 3.3, Unholy DPS will actually go down, at least to the level of everyone else (supposedly)
Plus with the New glyph of icy talons BUFF the numbers suggest dw frost isn't actually getting nerfed in any way at all according to EJ.
@Eleazer a small thing i have noticed with some of the top dw frost dpsr's is that the builds they use and glyphs are slightly differant from many i have seen i.e the basic 1's on here and EJ. For example
Izial Dw Frost - armoury
i have noticed him taking 2/3 bcb and fillingout COG with this extra point, ( i have also seen thi however the extra point has went into subversion, assuming to help with aggro ) Also the glyph of Death and Decay i found interesting as it does somewhat boost a spell 's damage which can only be a dps increase especially on anub fights with lots of adds and lord J?
Also id like to reccomennd this build :
Frost / Blood dw build
i picked this up from an EJ thread, i use it on anub and lord J for the extra aoe damage and i have found it works well in these situations.Glphs used with it would be D&D - Oblit - FS
thoughts?
Post by
Eleazer
Izial is gimping his dps by a few points. I have no idea why any frost dk would drop dnd. It's better to drop BcB all together rather than going 2/3. He has to maximize CotG though because he didn't glyph properly so he isn't generating enough runic power. The main decision is 3/3 BcB or 3/3 Subversion.
Do not recommend a Blood/Frost build here. We deal with only intelligent builds. Blood/Frost is a bad build for any raiding dk. Frost/unholy significantly beats it as your gear continues to improve. There isn't a single EJ thread that states it's a good build at all. Some people want it to be, but it isn't.
Post by
Zzeeuuss
the Frost / Blood Build is for aoe only where we use a high amount of spells i.e BB hb the extra crit and extra attack power from using this build i have found to work better than the normal frost / unholy build which is the 1 i use the most.
On regards to Izial he is doing top end damage and dps according to wmo etc along with a few others who dont follow the full 3/3 idea hence why i brought the subject up.
Post by
Eleazer
the Frost / Blood Build is for aoe only where we use a high amount of spells i.e BB hb the extra crit and extra attack power from using this build i have found to work better than the normal frost / unholy build which is the 1 i use the most.
On regards to Izial he is doing top end damage and dps according to wmo etc along with a few others who dont follow the full 3/3 idea hence why i brought the subject up.
I didn't say you couldn't do good dps that way, just that it wasn't optimal. 2/3 BcB with a good rotation and a smart dk will push pretty high on the charts, but if he were to maximize his dps he would need to go 3/3 by taking one point out of CotG and going with the Icy Touch Glyph.
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Post by
Eleazer
@sheath - You will take a dip initially until you get used to the rotation and playstyle of frost DW. Eventually you will be fine.
Post by
Zzeeuuss
By Eleazer 18 hr 26 min ago (Patch 3.2.2)
I didn't say you couldn't do good dps that way, just that it wasn't optimal. 2/3 BcB with a good rotation and a smart dk will push pretty high on the charts, but if he were to maximize his dps he would need to go 3/3 by taking one point out of CotG and going with the Icy Touch Glyph.
I understand that but the way i am looking at it is that he is maximizing out COTG ( gives extra 5 rp per it, hb, oblit and coi ) that to me is an extra 25 rp ( not including possible KM + RYME procs which will give more as hb also generates an additional 5rp) in the standard starting rotation.
1 : PS - IT - BS - BS - OBLIT - RP DUMP
2: OBLIT - OBLIT - OBLIT - RP DUMP
Now using the glyph of IT only provides an additional 10 rp per IT used in the same rotation. Which will be refreshed every 18 - 21 seconds or so if specced into epidemic.
After the first part of our rotation i am fully aware that it is then a priority rotation but even still i can't possibly see the glyph giving out more rp than maxed out COTG, IT will be refreshed when needed and inbetween times we will be throwing out plenty of Obliterates and KM + RYME procs to overtake the glyph. Therfore leaving a glyph space left over....hence why the use of D&D.
Personally i can't figure out where a D&D would be used but with COTG it makes up for the glyph and gives us a free glyph space of which something more useful could be added in.
Everything i have said may or may not be right but it's just from where i am looking at it, that it seems to work out...in my head anyway.If i am being totally stupid then please say so ( preferably not in a harsh way =P ) as you DO know more than me on the subject of dw frost dk's, im not trying to say i know something when i don't however what i am trying to say is * look i have thought of something, it seems to work out to me ok what do u think ?*
P.S :- Just read a somewhat non - amusing thread in the druid forums while looking for some KITTY Pve dps tips ......i think u know the thead im talking about Eleazer and i fully agree with all u have said on that thread ......GL with dealing with those druids lol.
EDIT : Spelling etc.
Post by
Eleazer
@zzuess - Yeah, they are a bunch of elitist feral pve cat lovers. They tick me off, it took me over 2 months to get a direct answer from someone. I can pull well over 5k with the cat if I do it right.
I don't know where you would ever use DnD in a rotation outside of tanking as frost DW. I never have a left over rune. If you aren't using IT glyph you should use Glyph of disease, that would add a lot more dps to his rotation because you only lose one BS as opposed to losing an Obliterate and a BS.
BTW, Rhime doesnt' cost a rune that's what makes it great. You use it when your runes are down, and you have a km proc. I use Rime when it's about to run out even if I don't have a km proc. I never run out of runic power, and never let it get full, so the difference between 2/2 CotG and Glyph of IT is so minimal it's worth the trade off for the extra runic power to give you an extra FS. Every other rotation.
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Post by
Zzeeuuss
I have had another think today while at work....i think wow is taking over my life lol, regarding :
He has to maximize CotG though because he didn't glyph properly so he isn't generating enough runic power. The main decision is 3/3 BcB or 3/3 Subversion.
BTW, Rhime doesnt' cost a rune that's what makes it great. You use it when your runes are down, and you have a km proc. I use Rime when it's about to run out even if I don't have a km proc. I never run out of runic power, and never let it get full, so the difference between 2/2 CotG and Glyph of IT is so minimal it's worth the trade off for the extra runic power to give you an extra FS
( didnt want to spam whole post eleazer so i just picked out the needed bit, although i know you hate this lol )
Come next patch the Icy touch glyph will be getting changed as we all know so it does not give RP.Now, since this is the case we would HAVE to max COTG then according to what the quote(s) say as it would in effect be replacing the RP gain from the current IT Glyph. Therefore we are going to have to lose a point somewhere in the build.
Taking a point out of Killing machine is a no no no no NO imo.
Getting rid of UBA? Hell no as it is a great talent for 1 point.
which leaves us with pretty much no option but to lose a point in BCB or Subversion depending on what you have talent wise.Nowhere else is going to allow us to lose any points in the build without seriously hindering dps / damage output, and even though having 2/3 in BCB or subversion may be a slight loss it's the best of a bad situation tbh.
However...
I personally only have 1 point in COTG and DO NOT use the IT glyph as i hate the playstyle of using it and have never found myself to be short of RP.Even if i am keeping up the IIT buff i still use the disease glyph as i know i have an oh S*&t button available at the cost of losing IIT for a few seconds to keep my diseases up.
The thought of knowing that i am going to use 2 unholy runes and 1 frost rune( or death depending on where i throw the combo in ) on mediocre attacks ( PS , IT, Pest ) when i could have an oblit ( or possibly 2 depending on death runes available ) sickens me actually. Although im pretty much going to be forced into using the new glyph when next patch is realeased to make up for tier nerf and im assuming by then it will most likely be a pretty much must have glyph for Dw frost.
In a nutshell what im saying is, if the case about not having enough RP when not using IT glyph is correct, then the build will NEED to change to allow a maximize COTG to make up for the loss and as far as i can see BCB or Subversion will be taking the hit.With the t10 4pc bonus ( i wish i was better at links =/ ) basicly u get a 3% increase over 15s of damage done while runes are on CD,which means we will be dumping RP at this point. So.. maxed out COTG = more RP gained = more FS, while all runes are on cd = win?
P.S - I know about that when ryme procs its a free hb =D i don't know if i have worded that wrong in previous post or if you read wrong so my apologies .
Edit(s) : i really should watch what i type lol
Post by
Zzeeuuss
@Broohaha - the standard rule is Slow/Slow as Kapucha stated due to the amount of high end damage on the weapon. Any fast weapons i have seen come nowhere near a slow weapon with regards to top end damage which is really really important.
If you are currently using 2 X slow weapons i would say stick with them however it would be nice if you show / tell us what weapon dropped and what you have currently equipped so we can give you a definate answer.
@Arithion - Usually unholy is prefered for trash / high movement encounters and blood for more boss fights.Yes it obviously depends on the type of encounter that you are in and what you are comfortable with. I wouldn't reccomend switching presence in the middle of an encounter though unless maybe for Icehowl HM where u get no speed boost, unholy comes in handy if you are a little slow. i won't comment on gear as you know what you need to upgrade and with gear upgrades the stats on them will help you reach exp,crit caps etc.
Good luck.
Zz.
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Post by
Eleazer
@Arithion, Regarding Presences Blood Presence shines the longer you are on a target, however, it does have a tighter rotation. This is what makes it best though, because there is no possibility of any GCD where you don't have something up. In unholy presence on a non-movement fight, you will have 2-3 seconds with nothing left to do. Plus all your attacks hit 15 percent weaker, I believe EJ's ran the numbers and it came out that only an IT Machine gun build would work with that presence on an extended fight. Unfortunately it would lose out in every other fight, so Blood Presence is best for the build.
@Zzeuess, I haven't read anything that states taking one point out of CotG isn't still the best method. Since the GoD builds never run out of runic power either, I don't think it will be much of a problem. So the setup will remain the same, the main reason for the IT glyph change was pvp, guys would spam IIT and then bammo FS you to death.
@Sabotron - This made it as a sticky quite awhile ago under helpful threads.
Post by
Zzeeuuss
Here is the 3.3 info Eleazer as i predicted :
Elitest Jerks link
Fresh out the wrapper for 3.3 - supposidly the new predominant build will be the 0 / 54 / 17, with a point out of bcb and maxed cotg.
Post by
Eleazer
Here is the 3.3 info Eleazer as i predicted :
Elitest Jerks link
Fresh out the wrapper for 3.3 - supposidly the new predominant build will be the 0 / 54 / 17, with a point out of bcb and maxed cotg.
What's confusing to me is it's okay to take one point out of CotG for Subversion but not for BcB. Seems a little backwards there. It looks like even our Priority rotation is changing, I will have to do some tests to verify. Seems to me that nothing much changed except new sigil and a slight change in priortization. I am going to stick with 53/18 for now and see how it works.
Post by
Zzeeuuss
Yeah i think it is still a bit unclear just now, atleast until more testing is done and the new patch comes live.
iIn one of the posts according to some testing the new DW Unholy out Dps's Dw Frost and ontop of that, also according to EJ 2h and Dw unholy will be pretty much the same DPS wise, it looks interesting.
I personally think much much more testing needs to be done however it is looking promising especially for unholy.
Also noticed in the patch notes that Obliterate was NOT working properly and sometimes was not applying 12.5% + 12.5% = 25 % Damage increase due to diseases on target.
*Obliterate: This ability will no longer sometimes fail to do additional damage based on diseases on the target.* - i guess this can be regarded as a small buff in 3.3
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