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Four Old Gods?
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Post by
Adamsm
Seven makes the most sense as there are currently six of the Greater Emotion Shas out there; seven Greater Sha from the Seven Mouths and all that.
Post by
751416
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arraya
Sha of Vengeance? Because vengeance is a bad emotion... and because he isn't seen it can be because since he is vengeance he can be recovering from a fight or plotting his revenge... or maybe Anduin gets hurt and Varian wants revenge and that's when he comes out?
Post by
632758
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ice83085
The old gods are far more than mundane azeroth creatures. There are many hints that they are ones responsible for Sargeras turning evil in the first place.
Post by
Adamsm
The old gods are far more than mundane azeroth creatures. There are many hints that they are ones responsible for Sargeras turning evil in the first place.
Um....no, there's actually not; unless you buy into the Tin Foil Hat that the Dreadlords are really servants of the Old Gods. Sargeras was corrupted by the same evil he fought against.
Post by
Ozlem
I still think there is one buried under Whispering forest regardless of a dev
saying
there is not one under Tirisfal Glade. To me Whispering Forest is almost removed from Tirisfal Glade, the very nature of how it's off the map in a un-named area shows how removed from that zone it is and you know how coy Devs can be, sure there is not one under Tirisfal Glade... but up high in those mountains near Silverpine is another story!
Now hear me out, there is the surface connection of the Old God's habit of whispering and the name of the forest is
whispering
forest. But then there is
Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron
that whispers:
"Have you had the dream again? A black goat with seven eyes that watches from the outside."
"There is a little lamb lost in dark woods."
"Look around. They will all betray you. Flee screaming into the black forest."
First I want to highlight two reasons why I think this 'black woods' is Whispering forest & why it's a old god.
1) "They will all betray you"... well we can take this literal since that fisherman was betrayed when he got stabbed in the back on that small island in the lake in whispering forest. Is there any other place where there is evidence of a betrayal in a wooded area?
2) "a black goat with seven eyes" refers to
Shub-Niggurath
, a deity in the Cthulhu Mythos, who is often pictured over a circle of mushrooms.... the key feature of whispering forest is a mushroom circle! Which leads me to...
Fey-Drunk Darter
which is a
Faerie dragon
& as we know Malfurion Stormrage summoned them from the Emerald Dream. Whispering forest is void of Faerie dragon, however every so many hours a group of
Fey-Drunk Darter
phase into our world and once SEVEN (possibly a hint to the connection of 'seven eyes', maybe seven eyes warding off the the old god with seven eyes?) gather they then sing a pure song, you can argue this song keeps the old god under ground as the song is pure emerald dream nature cleansing spell. Once the song is over they float away and phase back into the emerald dream.
:'( I'm sorry I just can't get passed it. How can there not be one there?
(For more excellent theories and 'evidence' you should read user's Quench post on fey-drunk darters. I like his theory on bloodstone relics I find it to be more then a tin-foil theory, it's a great connection to the area and a old god.)
Post by
Adamsm
Thing is...we already know the Seven Headed Old God, and it's deader then a doornail and the reason why there are Sha running around.
Post by
Ozlem
Yeah but isn't the seven headed old god just Y'Shaarj? Shub-Niggurath is the seven
eyed
old god with only one bulbous body which also acts as a head (with hundreds of root like tentacles sticking from said bulbous body/head, but still only the one head.) I know wowwiki makes reference that the seven eyes could be the seven headed old god Y'Shaarj but this is just not the case since Shub-Niggurath is associated as/with "the black goat". I think the editor of that section took a leap with only 'it has seven heads so that could be the seven eyes so it must be a reference to shub-niggurath', despite the fact that Shub-Niggurath has always been depicted as a single body/head figure:
Quote:
She is a perverse fertility deity said to appear as an enormous cloudy mass which extrudes black tentacles, slime-dripping mouths, and short, writhing goat legs.
With the proper occult paraphernalia, Shub-Niggurath can be summoned to any woodlands at the time of the new moon.
(maybe like being summoned through a mushroom faerie circle in the middle of a thick woodland perhaps?)
... The fact that Shub-Niggurath is so deeply rooted in old 'woodland' geography also doesn't ring true for Y'Shaarj characteristics.
There is also the question of the 'dark young' associated with the old god with seven eyes. Shub-Niggurath's dark young could be all the dark beasts that roam Whispering Forest, but what are Y'Shaarj's dark young?
I don't know I just don't buy Y'Shaarj as Shub-Niggurath.
Another thing I can't shake is Shub-Niggurath can be referred to as “The Black Ram of The Forest with a Thousand Ewes"... and guess what animal walks around in abundance in the whispering forest, ewes!
There is also the fact that according to Malfurion Stormrage, one of the Old Gods is behind the Nightmare corrupting the Emerald Dream (and the one who corrupted Xavius who was ruling over the Nightmare) it's always been strongly suggested that a much larger and unseen malevolent force is behind it implicating that the Old Gods are responsible. If we go back to the fey-drunk darters, faerie dragons, creatures from the Emerald Dream there is a reason why they phase in to protect/guard/heal this spot in the whispering forest. Shub-Niggurath is speculated that she lives in another dimension altogether, somewhere dark, and she is often summoned from this dark realm, could this dark realm be the nightmare? and could it possibly be the darters which are keeping her there through their spell casting? I know N'Zoth is connected but that's still just speculation as blizz has never named him the old god of the nightmare and there is also speculation N'Zoth could also be the "drowned god" not the old god of the nightmare, so that spot is still up for grabs. I still think the fey-drunk darter event is significant that there is a old god around and team that with all the other stuff that points to it being the old god with seven eyes, to me, it's Shub-Niggurath.
:'( I know a dev said no way about a old god in Tirisfal Glades... but *points finger on old parchment of paper* the signs, I can't stop looking at all these signs (lol.)
((Sorry for all the edits I love topics on lore and old gods like this and just wanted to share as much info as I can to help the debate.))
Post by
Adamsm
C'thun is the Old God of the Eyes though.
Post by
Skreeran
I always read Shub-Niggurath as "The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand
Young
."
Also, the Old Gods really have nothing to do with Lovecraft's Old Ones/Elder Gods/Et Cetera. Look at C'thun. Name is based on Cthulhu (or Cthugha, Cthylla, or C'thalpa, but I don't really consider them canon, because I'm generally a Lovecraft purist), but has nothing to do with Cthulhu. Likewise, Yogg-Saron is a subterranean mouth monster, rather than an omnipotent collection of floating globules.
Post by
Ozlem
C'thun is the Old God of the Eyes though.
Yeah there is that (._.) ... it's just I always thought of him more along the lines of Chthonians from the Cthulhu mythos. And yeah there is no disputing he is known for that eye, but it's eye not eyes, he is the old god with the giant eye for sure... but seven? /faceplantkeyboard Adam you always make me question myself lol.
I always read Shub-Niggurath as "The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand
Young
."
Also, the Old Gods really have nothing to do with Lovecraft's Old Ones/Elder Gods/Et Cetera. Look at C'thun. Name is based on Cthulhu (or Cthugha, Cthylla, or C'thalpa, but I don't really consider them canon, because I'm generally a Lovecraft purist), but has nothing to do with Cthulhu. Likewise, Yogg-Saron is a subterranean mouth monster, rather than an omnipotent collection of floating globules.
I rarely look for answers to questions found in wow lore outside of wow fiction but I do see resemblances between some of the old gods in wow and the Cthulhu mythos. I do think C'Thun bears a resemblance to Chthonian of the Cthulhu mythos (more so then actual Cthulhu) and there are physical and habitual similarities between Chthonian and C'Thun. With regards to Yogg-Saron I do feel the name is evolved from Lovecraft's Yog-Sothoth and I've always seen his description of Yog-Sothoth being a hideous tentacled noxious horror to be fitting of Yogg-Saron. Yog-Sothoth summons iridescent globules but so does Yogg-Saron but in the form of sanity wells.
So with that in mind, that I can see resemblances between the old gods in the Cthulhu mythos and wow old gods, I can find similarities again this time with Shub-Niggurath is all. Having said this I know it could well be that the black goat old god mentioned by the puzzle box is not speaking about Shub-Niggurath and is something entirely different, after all there is no strong wow lore backing this or an actual name /shrug just something I think about when I think about old gods trapped under Azeroth.
Now can I ask some questions that are related to the topic but not to Shub-Niggurath? It's regarding the number of old gods....
With regards to "five" old gods chained beneath Azeroth, isn't our source for that from the Warcraft III manual (re written in
The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth
) ? or has there been a more recent source? I ask because at the time of Warcraft III C'Thun was believed dead and not imprisoned. So does that mean the 'five' mentioned doesn't include C'Thun? I only ask because I'm never sure and I personally count Ahn'Qiraj as a old god location, but now and again when I find myself flying around Azeroth I think to myself, maybe there's six, five plus C'thun. I don't know have you ever thought this? (of course if the source is more recent then the Warcraft III manual or
The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth
the question is moot.)
Also with regards to Y'Shaarj do we still count him as the five or since he is dead do we not count him as one of the five? Same goes for N'zoth, we know N'zoth is a named god but do we count him as one of the five since there is a question mark over his location?
Post by
Adamsm
No there were 5 at the time of the Ordering: Yogg, C'thun, N'Zoth and Y'Shaarj and one more unknown. At the time of the Ordering story they do speak about a battle that left one of the Titan forgers dead and one of the Old Gods dead; in this case it was the 7 Headed One.
Since we know of the Three from the War of the Ancients, which were Yogg, N'Zoth and the Unnamed one.
Post by
Ozlem
Perfect, thanks Adam, always had me wondering.
Post by
Skreeran
I always read Shub-Niggurath as "The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand
Young
."
Also, the Old Gods really have nothing to do with Lovecraft's Old Ones/Elder Gods/Et Cetera. Look at C'thun. Name is based on Cthulhu (or Cthugha, Cthylla, or C'thalpa, but I don't really consider them canon, because I'm generally a Lovecraft purist), but has nothing to do with Cthulhu. Likewise, Yogg-Saron is a subterranean mouth monster, rather than an omnipotent collection of floating globules.
I rarely look for answers to questions found in wow lore outside of wow fiction but I do see resemblances between some of the old gods in wow and the Cthulhu mythos. I do think C'Thun bears a resemblance to Chthonian of the Cthulhu mythos (more so then actual Cthulhu) and there are physical and habitual similarities between Chthonian and C'Thun. With regards to Yogg-Saron I do feel the name is evolved from Lovecraft's Yog-Sothoth and I've always seen his description of Yog-Sothoth being a hideous tentacled noxious horror to be fitting of Yogg-Saron. Yog-Sothoth summons iridescent globules but so does Yogg-Saron but in the form of sanity wells.
So with that in mind, that I can see resemblances between the old gods in the Cthulhu mythos and wow old gods, I can find similarities again this time with Shub-Niggurath is all. Having said this I know it could well be that the black goat old god mentioned by the puzzle box is not speaking about Shub-Niggurath and is something entirely different, after all there is no strong wow lore backing this or an actual name /shrug just something I think about when I think about old gods trapped under Azeroth.
Now can I ask some questions that are related to the topic but not to Shub-Niggurath? It's regarding the number of old gods....I really disagree. Besides the names and the insanity thing (which works completely differently with WoW Old Gods than it does in Lovecraft), the Old Gods really have nothing to do with Lovecraft's deities.
Yogg-Saron:
Giant tentacle monster with a thousand maws.
Defeated by 10-25 adventurers and 0-4 Titant Watchers.
Lives on Azeroth, imprisoned by the Titans.
Conglomeration of glowing spheres.
Most powerful entity in the Mythos (besides possibly Azathoth).
Exists outside of our space and time.
I wasn't really familiar with Cthonians before, because as I mentioned, I'm a bit of a Lovecraft purist (not completely, there are some ideas that I do think mesh with Lovecrafts, but a lot of Derleth's stuff really goes against Lovecraft's themes), but I see what you mean in that they do kind of fit. Still, besides the physical and name resemblance, there is still a whole lot of creative license taken there.
Anyway, I really don't think the Old Gods correspond directly to any of Lovecraft's deities, besides the names. Lovecraft's deities weren't actually giant tentacle monsters, that's just how we perceived them. Lovecraft's deities didn't
make
people go insane, they revealed fundamental truths about the universe that human minds weren't capable of processing (leading to insanity). Lovecraft's deities were completely alien in their motivations and forms; they didn't mesh with our understanding of the universe at all.
One of the pervading themes in Lovecraft is human ignorance. The idea that for all our science and intuition, we really don't know anything about the universe, how it works, and what lives in and around it.
The Old Gods in WoW are just giant tentacle monsters with insanity powers. They really don't have anything to do with Lovecraft, besides borrowing the names.
Post by
Ozlem
Yeah I can agree with your perspective on it was well Skreeran.
I think one of my problems that is clouding my perspective is I'm reading far more into it because I too curious about this section of lore, so when I am presented with a giant globby old god tentacle thing, or a magic mushroom circle, or some large bones I do fall victim of allowing my imagination to race and to draw far more into it then what is in font of my face. I think that's why I do draw on Lovecraft so easy while a purist, as you say, wouldn't go there so quick, or at all. *bites lip* I just can't help going there.
Slightly off topic but I always hope the very last expansion of wow, ever, should be about the old gods getting free. A full circle type of story line.
Post by
Skreeran
Yeah I can agree with your perspective on it was well Skreeran.
I think one of my problems that is clouding my perspective is I'm reading far more into it because I too curious about this section of lore, so when I am presented with a giant globby old god tentacle thing, or a magic mushroom circle, or some large bones I do fall victim of allowing my imagination to race and to draw far more into it then what is in font of my face. I think that's why I do draw on Lovecraft so easy while a purist, as you say, wouldn't go there so quick, or at all. *bites lip* I just can't help going there.
Slightly off topic but I always hope the very last expansion of wow, ever, should be about the old gods getting free. A full circle type of story line. Heh, I tend to read too much into things as well. It's just that there's always a little voice in the back of my head whining "Do you
really
think they put this much thought into it? They're just making another big scary boss for the raiders to kill."
Post by
627828
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Except...the Ordering of Azeroth speaks about 5 Old Gods.
And Y'Shaarj is dead; from it's final breath, the Sha were born. Refer to the Klaxxi last quest for that.
There is also the Proto-Old God thing that the Arrokka in Shadowmoon were trying to summon.
As for N'Zoth, it makes more sense for that one to be somewhere in Kalimdor, since It was responsible for Azshara's transformation and Xavius evolution into the Nightmare Lord.
Post by
H3Knuckles
As for N'Zoth, it makes more sense for that one to be somewhere in Kalimdor, since It was responsible for Azshara's transformation and Xavius evolution into the Nightmare Lord.
I kinda figured he was somewhere under the sunken parts of original Kalimdor; near the capital of Azshara's Empire before the Sundering, in place to be responsible for the Naga, and roughly equidistant between the Eastern Kingdoms (to influence Deathwing) and modern Kalimdor (to support Xavius' tampering with the Emerald Dream).
But then, I also think there's one somewhere under Tirisfal.
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