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Why DK's are OP and a balanced fix.
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Post by
79146
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Post by
cloudp
it has no other role left to play besides 'just like a snare, only
better
.' And I don't think Blizzard would put an ability into the game with that thought behind it.
It strikes me as odd that you claim that no DR on such a powerful spell is weird compared to other classes, when I can't think of any other snare-based mechanic that suffers from DR. Frost Shock used to, but they took that out. And whether you want to
call
it a gap closer or not, it
is
needed to close gaps, and if you put strict DRs on something that is already dispellable... how does a DK ever get into melee range in team play, ever again?
I will, couter to normal, begin by the end. There, you pointed one of the biggest mistakes on the Death Knight class blizzard has made. Death Knight trees can all handle tanking and dps simultaneously. Multiple purpose trees is one of the main things that makes a DK the OP people complain so much about. Do you see many fury warriors? holy priests? combat rogues? fire mages? tank-specced druids, warriors or paladins? (excluding the stupid prothealer spec, but that at least has counters.). And do people complain? not really. DKs should have a dps, a tanking and a more pvp-oriented spec (like warriors do). That would be a smart fix. I won't overquote to keep this pyramid-free.
it has no other role left to play besides 'just like a snare, only
better
.' And I don't think Blizzard would put an ability into the game with that thought behind it.
(...)
Rogues can output COI level control and dps simultaneously, and stance-dancing warriors can play the outlasting game better.
I thought everyone was suposed to be equally balanced? than, your second statement there is kinda strange. But i will still reply. A rogue can output COI control and damage, and as soon as some player gets him with cooldowns off, the rogue is lolsquished instantly. The warrior can play defensively and outlast, but does riduculous less damage. which leads me to another point:
And why would you even bring up diseases as significant range damage when rogues and warriors can put up undispellable dots of their own?
Because their snares imply melee range to be applied (even deadly throw. Combo points must be generated before you can use it. DT is not a defensive ability, its used to prevent the enemy escaping. Use it to run is hard and difficult to manage.). They cannot kite in any way, for either they run at the same speed than his opponent and eventually get caught, or they have to expose to melee range to reapply hamstring/crippling.
No class is supposed to counter everything. Deathknights can. Their closer of a counter could be Priests, but a DK is still too troublesome to a priest to be considered a one-sided battle.
Post by
114933
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Post by
320570
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Post by
Lightrain
I forgot another issue.
DG needs to require a path. Being able to literally pull people off upper elevations is just way too much.
I fought an actually skilled dk last night, and I got yanked off the top of the dalaran sewers raised section way too many times. That allows his druid to drink 20x more than he should be able to....
I had that happen while fighting resto druids on the pillar in the nagrand arena, and his DK will just DG you right off the ledge every time you try to attack the resto.
I played a 3v3 with a DK, and was happy he could yank people off the upper elevation down to the bottom, but even then I thought it was too OP....
=/
In reguards to frost DK's... Yes, their burst is pretty high. But, if they just reduced the duration of hungering cold, it wouldn't be an issue. 10 seconds is too much....
Post by
283244
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Post by
Lightrain
Ya, I didn't say it was both.
But, when you DG off an upper level, you can't FC back up unless he's standing on the very edge. It has to do with LoS to the landing spot rather than LoS to the toon itself I think. But I can't see a rogue being able to beat a DK when neither the rogue or his healer can stay on the DK's healer. Same goes for warriors and the whole "path" issue. Pull the warrior down off the top, and it's an issue trying to keep the DK's healer from drinking.
I typically don't have issues with DK's other than trying to keep their healer from drinking at the same time as nuking the DK, but killing his healer is easier than killing a DK.... Especially if it's a resto druid healing him.
Post by
146899
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Nope.
The problem, the ONLY problem I have with DK's is the amount of survival they give themselves AND their healer thru their cooldowns and DG/CoI/Frost presence.
Frost presence needs a tougher damage reduction, so the DK can't actually SIT in frost presence for an entire fight and literally wear the other team down solely because he still does significant DPS(not like bear or prot stance).
CoI and DG give them too much control. Slow down the other team to an extreme in 2v2, and your healer has free drinking time while no one can reach him and he sits in Frost presence with a pet ready to be sac'd.
Pet needs to be a liability if they go unholy. They don't even try to heal it. They just res a new one when it dies. Because of it's "lack of liability" it needs a cast time, and possibly be more important to the DK's DPS/control while being difficult to get it back up.
In all serious practicality. If I didn't have a prot paladin with infinite DP, paladin/feral would NOT be able to beat DK/resto. Similarly, warrior/resto is one of the few teams that can outlast a DK/resto team simply because of it's mechanics. I quite honestly can't see priest/rogue beating DK/resto unless the rogue gets amazing burst on the druid while barkskin and trinket are on cooldown followed by a fear and a re open while the DK is CC'd and unable to get the rogue off him.
Why? A) pet isn't a liability. It dies, res it and sick it on the healer again. B) DK can keep 2 people in combat the majority of the time, and if he can't the resto druid can easily keep the healer in combat while healing the DK and self.
I had a 20-30 minute fight against dk/resto last night. I can't see it being possible with a resto sham or priest if they can play/pull off the outlast game. We almost got outlasted. We literally won right as my paladin went oom by the druid being dumb and trying to tank us both standing back against a wall and we went full out offensive.
Post by
238631
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Post by
238631
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
As for your first post, it sounds like the normal QQ about how your OP class isn't being played to it's full potential and you are probably sitting on a 1500 or under arena team because of it.
Pet needs to be a liability if they go unholy. They don't even try to heal it. They just res a new one when it dies. Because of it's "lack of liability" it needs a cast time, and possibly be more important to the DK's DPS/control while being difficult to get it back up.
If you aren't unholy the pet is on a 3min summon timer, as frost or blood, sacrifice is a panic button. Also, why would anyone spec into a liability? Does a hunter pet, or lock minion need to be a liability too? A warlock can resummon a pet in seconds with his demon mastery (or whatever it's called, don't play a lock) Bm hunters rez quickly too, and both of them have pets with much more utility, my ghoul doesn't stun as well as a succy, or dps as well as a hunter pet. and yes, i do heal my ghoul, as rezzing it limits my ability to use death pact at will. in the time it took me to write my last post you gave me more senseless qq to respond to. please slow down so ppl who know what they're talking about can respond.
Lets see your armory, because this has me thinking the same as the other post, which is trying to argue what everyone and myself have said about it, less the DK's under 1500 of course.
For now... Warlock pet is a MAJOR liability. Hunter's pets are half their CC should they use a crab, spider, or that flying dragon thing. You can burst a warlock incredibly fast if he doesn't have his pet out. You can survive a hunter, and if he's dual dps BM and you kill his pet, his game is over.
For a DK..... Unholy has an instant cast with a stupidly short CD. It's stun, which most DK's don't consider to be major, low dps(the DK does most of it), and the ability to resumon it for a Sac' is what makes it NOT a liability.
The longer cooldown for frost and blood DK's means they don't keep it up, and res it solely for sacrifice most of the time, and it only costs a GCD.
What does this mean? Well, lets see. Another annoyance on top of all the other annoyances and no way to even get rid of it or make it less of an annoyance means it's OP. It keeps healers from drinking, stuns them when their partner is low on HP without you using a GCD or any resources, and is easily resed should you lose it because you have it auto attacking the healer so he can't drink.
Pet stun can be, and has been game breaking in numerous matches.
Now, you claim hunter and lock pets vs DK pets. They HAVE to summon it. You don't. It's a major part of their character and their class's play style, yet, it's harder to get back up should it die(and their healers DO heal their pets to keep them alive because their pet is difficult to get back up), and can easily be the difference between a win and a loss.
Your arguement has been denied.
Post by
285681
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Post by
Lightrain
To just do a general address of the Unholy pet issue... it's not supposed to be a liability, or something your survival is heavily dependent on, like a BM hunter or SL lock. Ghouls are meant to be disposable, throwaways, secondary DPS with a minor amount of utility. That's why they're so easy to rez, because they're supposed to die a lot. When you compare to a warlock or hunter pet, the real problem is that their pets are supposed to be tended to with care and kept alive because they're a primary class mechanic, but the players and pets lack the tools to do this effectively. Also, felguards have gimp utility compared to pretty much all other pets, and badly need a buff in that area. Blizzard is starting to realize this and pets are getting some Resilience in the next patch, hopefully that will help things.
I'm sorry dude, but you totally contradicted yourself with this one paragraph. For this purpose, I will explain the sheer importance of the Lock's demon and the BM hunter's pet.(no, I didn't read the rest of this post, the rather large paragraphs are jumpy and not about one topic, the reason why I said TLDNR in the other post a page or so back.)
BM- Kill pet, you kill his immunity to CC. You also kill HALF his dps. Kill it twice, and he has to cast it back up and he's now doing HALF his damage. MAJOR LIABILITY. You can NOT DPS as BM without a pet.
Warlock- Every lock has
Soul Link
. Glyphed it's 25% of their damage mitigation. Have you crit a lock with his pet up, then killed the pet and crit him again? Seriously? This is completly and utterly self explanatory. On top of that, Lock pets are a major part of their CC. It's NOT disposable. They NEED it.
Killing a lock or hunter pet twice so they have to res it and keeping them from resing their pet reduces their chance of a win, literally, in half. It's not a joke, it's FACT. If you can kill it safely without killing yourself in the process, you greatly increase your chances to kill them.
Please claim the same for a DK. This will seriously drop all of your validity in this thread and any DK thread in the future.
Hunter and lock pets are a serious liability, and are not expendable.
PS- I use caps instead of bold because it's easier. I'm not yelling, I'm reinforcing.
Post by
285681
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Ok, I managed somehow to decifer most of the resto of your post.... Try to be more clear when you change topics... Please... I'm going to start putting TLDNR under all of them if you can't figure that out.
I don't think it's a mistake. As a basic design philosophy, I think it's a great improvement over vanilla/BC, and something that the game should push even more in the future. At the start of the game's life, your role in pve and pvp was determined very strictly by class and spec. That limited player choice and variety, and created other problems that dual spec only bandaids. Things like healers being unable to farm, or tanks being unable to pvp. While supporting more roles per tree is harder to balance, I don't think it's a significant root cause of game imbalance compared to other ideas the designers cling to, like the concepts of MS versus burst, or damage versus threat, or consistency between pve and pvp mechanics, or the existence of arena as the best pvp loot system balanced around a flawed ladder and prearranged team matches in a small box. Those are the things that are really keeping the game down. DK numbers can always be tweaked, and it's not like Blizzard has refrained from nerfing major pvp issues because of pve implications. You say yourself that no one's complaining about the other new spec usages for other classes that have come out of this new design philosophy, so why is the problem with the general philosophy and not just with (for argument's sake) the one class you do have a problem with?
For one, the earlier portion, I'm sure you would like Prot warriors doing 1-2k bursts of dps in arena wearing PvE tanking gear right?
There's a reason bear form and prot spec/stance are made to do less damage. Don't kid yourself.
I'm not sure where you get "Pre aranged team matches in a small box." 2v2 is not prearranged, it's random. How many prot healer/feral teams have you played against? I'm leaning toward the "rock, paper, scissors" theme rather than "prearranged".
With the exception of 5v5, both classes have retained healthy arena representation for every single season, which is more than most casters can say. I think the ups and downs balance out pretty well. Rogues do get screwed over in 5v5, and it would be nice to fix that, but I see no way of doing it without nerfing them in the smaller brackets simultaneously. Also, FoK is becoming something of a fad in 5v5, and if it keeps up they may not even need buffs for that bracket anymore.
They can Vanish, leaving the players having to guess where the rogue is. They can Sprint, creating an enormous distance gap (and breaking out of roots/snares if Combat specced). They can reapply poisons with FoK without getting into melee range.
Rogues being an annoyance in no way means they are OP. Now, in 5v5, a quick rogue that can open, FoK, and vanish without getting caught and have crip and wound up on the entire team can definitely be an asset for a cleave team. Everyone rolls in and the rogue does a quick debuff run and CC's 2 healers at once while his partners come in and cleave the entire team for being stupid by no means says 5's teams that stack on eachother should be allowed to progress past 1500....
While DKs are 'troublesome' to priests, many casters could effectively counter them... except that rogues and warriors have been keeping the overall representation for casters in the smaller brackets low for the entire history of arena. Fix the general melee > casters problem, and you'd see DK representation drop. Ever see how an Unholy DK fares versus an Elemental shaman? Of course you haven't, because no one plays Ele shaman... because they suck. Every class counters something and is countered by something else. It's just that some of the classes are so weak that they have negligible representation, which leads to an overabundance of the class they would normally counter. It's like in nature... if you kill all the wolves, you get too many deer.
I'm pretty sure you weren't around in S1-S4, when warlocks ruled, and mage/rogue was one of the toughest teams to beat.
I'm also pretty sure you've never faced an ele sham paired with a destro lock or frost mage.... The burst.... is not.... funny..... Nor is it a joke. It's retardedly overpowered and the only counter is a rogue, possibly a skilled mage/priest or lock/healer team, but I seriously doubt it.
We ran into a destro lock, ele sham, holy paladin team in 3v3, and there is nothing underwhelming about shaman burst. They can literally focus target ONE person, and in the span of a HoJ, they can push out 20k or more damage. Then they can interupt or hex, and finish off said target before he gets out of range. It's not a joke.
Blizzard is trying to counter MS for casters with guaranteed crits. While it works on larger scaled arena(3v3 and 5v5), it doesn't work particularly well in 2v2.
It's like in nature... if you kill all the wolves, you get too many deer.
This makes me think your a bit young too. Never heard of cars have you? Trucks usually work better... (couldn't resist...)
Post by
Lightrain
Um, Light, I don't disagree with anything you just said. You appear to have completely misinterpreted the point of what you quoted, which was emphasizing the disposable nature of the ghoul versus the non-throwaway nature of BM and lock pets. The harder to rez pets are harder to rez because you're supposed to want to keep them alive more than a DK wants to keep his ghoul alive. The problem is that Blizzard has always been slow about giving pets the necessary defenses to survive, thus making an easy-rez pet preferable to a hard-rez pet, but they're moving in the right direction, albeit at a drifting glacier's pace.
For what it's worth, a lock was my main before DKs came out, so I have a general idea of how their mechanics work and all. (I rerolled DK because I thematically prefer melee over casters while still liking pets.)
You're right, I think I missed the ghoul input in there and thought you were talking about lock and hunter pets being disposable.
However, DK pets are kept around for the stun and the sacrifice, which in turn makes them a major portion of DK playstyle.
They need a cast time. That's just how it should be. It should be included in the Master of Ghouls talent that allows you to keep it around permanently.
Post by
285681
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
...I am getting accusations of being young from someone who can't spell freaking 'decipher?'
...you know what, you're not worth the effort. I should have known that when you started the thread by calling DKs nub knights. Just goes to show I need to stop giving people benefit of the doubt.
If you think my posts are too long, try reading a book sometime for sake of comparison.
Lol. Either way you look at it, defending a Death Knight in PvP is comparable to saying you'd survive a Saurfang cleave, or a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick. It just can't be done.
/shrug.
And yes, DK's being able to tank in all trees IS what's causing the imbalance. They can spec for major burst dps, and grab enough tanking talents all in one tree.
Basically, Bear+Ret =/= PvP balance.
You can't argue it will.
Post by
Mitokok
I'm seriously tired of nub knights. I'm especially tired of DG and CoI spamming. It IS overpowered. Don't give me the "it reduces DK burst a lot" BS. It's extremely overpowered for waiting for cooldowns to come back and it's horrifically spammable from a DISTANCE.
I have no issues with their damage output. Even their overpowered silence on top of a very short cooldown interupt.
- Gargoyle needs to be reachable(they are fixing it). A flying pet that does more damage than any other pet in the game during it's untouchable burst and seemingly has no range or LoS limitations.
- CoI needs to be a SLOW, not a snare. Slower than 50% in any way, shape or form is OP for a melee dps, especially when you can cast it every 5 seconds and keep anyone under 50% speed. If they want to keep it the same, the cost needs to be increased to 2 Frost runes. Maybe a slow with it's current cost, glyphed to what it is now with the cost increased to 2 runes.
- Pet stun is retarded, and not on a global cooldown because it's a pet ability. If they want to give it this ability, it needs to be killable. Not an instant cast res with minimal cost and a renewable CD.
- Desecration isn't needed if CoI is changed to a slow. It's retarded to have a slowing AoE effect that can be stacked on top of an AoE damage effect, both of which have MINIMAL to no cost.
- Disease durations are WAY too long. Shorten them. It's not like they aren't being refreshed at 1/4 to 1/2 duration anyways....
Yes, this is QQ. DK's have ruined the fun of BG PVP in 59-80 brackets.
You're an idiot. If CoI cost 2 frost runes it would be fairly worthless, ever heard of Scourge Strike, Obliterate, Death Strike? Yeah they all cost an Unholy Rune and a Frost Rune. Yes you can get Death Runes by using Blood Strike (Or Death Strike/Oblit if your blood) but even then they would take 10 seconds to refresh.
Pet stun is only 2 seconds, and you have to be Unholy speced to get it. I'm not saying it is usless, I've found it to be great as a Death Knight, but it has never flat out won me a fight, it just helps.
What are you talking about "AoE damage effect"? Descration gives us an additional 5% damage boost, it dosen't do AoE damage, if your talking about Death and Decay, that has a 3 rune cost, which is high.
If you shorten disease duration you would screw over Death Knights in PvE. Also they do good damage, but it is nowhere near Warlock DoTs, if you kill a Death Knight and they die from the disease, you probably were already into the 5% health range anyway.
Also Mind Freeze has a 10 second CD, just like Kick.
In PvP, with a 20 second duration DoT, you can keep someone from stealthing for 20 seconds. If you think a paladin can afford 3 global cooldowns to remove 3 diseases(usually more because blood usually takes 2-3 cleanses to remove and I'm not sure why, but it almost always happens that way), you have some serious "reality"
(for lack of a better word...)
issues.
You say it's "useful."
Well, if you combine pet stun, CoI, DG, Gargoyle that is uncontrollable and hits for 1700 per cast and CAN NOT BE LOS'D, a short immunity to spell damage, desecration that lasts as long as hunter's frost trap but happens on specified attacks and happens more often, a short immunity to stun with a damage reduction, a tanking "presence" that has more benefits than bear form and is almost as good as prot stance with cooldowns blown, a 10 sec cd interupt, silence, and on demand self healing from 2 sources....
I'ld say that's a lot of "useful" that adds up to OP.
That's why you have runes, because you have every tool in the book AND a lot of new ones that weren't in the book. If you weren't limited by runes, you would be able to spam a whole lot of abilities and blow anything up in a matter of seconds. It's like vampires VS. humans. You can't say you don't have the advantage. You just need to learn how to use your advantages and stop trying to protect an overpowered defensive class that can keep itself and it's healer alive longer than any other class all because they were given the ability to "tank without a shield and are 'the new spell damage tanks'". They have more physical mitigation than druids and warriors in PvP spec, and do more damage while mitigating that damage.
This is why I don't like arguing with DK's that don't know much about their class and other classes.
You're right Death Knights have alot of ablitys that help them out, and almost everything you listed was on a CD. The Ghoul stun is 3 seconds, so all these storys about "OMG this DK silenced and stunned me for 10 seconds or something!" are wrong... its 8 seconds =P
The main weakness of DKs is their ablitys are on CD. Once DG is used there is 25 seconds (35 without talents) of inablity to pull anything near them. Chains of ice is great, yes but it actually DOES affect our dps if we spam it, as an unholy knight if I spam Chains of ice right away, I won't be able to use Scourge Strike, and even after I get two Death Runes from blood strike, I still have to wait 10 seconds before I can use them (Unless I use Blood tap, which is also on a CD.). Also if your a ranged class and I chain of ice you at range (while snared) it does me no good. In arena it dosen't matter if I chain of Ice a priest, as long as that rogue keeps crippling posin on me, with DG on CD the most I can do is silence him for 5 seconds. (usually the CD makes it usable once/twice in arena.)
Gargoyal is getting fixed, so you can kill it in the patch, stop crying about something that is only going to be around for a few more months. AMS and IBF are both really useful. Yes they can turn the tide of a battle but IBF is being put on a 2 min CD. Like I said before, once we use our ablitys we are easier to kill. Yes I know it is difficult to survive the burst while those ablitys are being used. (I went aginst one druid in arena that died in around 4 seconds after Strangulate, with help of course from a pally.) Overall Death Knights are a powerful class, but not so overpowered that it breaks gameplay, they are not impossible to defeat and I know you think that it takes no skill to play a DK, and your right. It does take skill to play a DK well however, and a diffrence can be seen between a horrible DK and a good one. Also lulz at you saying I don't know anything about Death Knights, when you obviously don't know much about ablitys that require runes. It sounds like you just think that Chains of Ice is the only ablity that uses frost runes. >.>
As far as other classes go, outside of Prot. Pally PvP and Druids. No I don't know much about other classes other than how to kill them.
Wall of text (sorta) ftw.
Since my messege prob. got jumbled up a bit here is a summary.
Death Knights are not OP in all PvP , they are just powerful.
Most of the ablitys they have are on long CDs, and these will prob. be nerfed later anyway.
So really DKs are just a bit too powerful in arena, could they be fixed? Yeah, but all of your ideas are retarted. (Other than Gargoyal being moved to attackable range, which was already going to be implmented in the next patch. Also Ghoul is on 1 min CD after you summon it. It dosen't start on CD untill the ghoul dies.
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