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3.1.0 Raid Build Compendium
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Post by
82219
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
irharry
meta and demonic pact builds bring a lot to the table, but they also leave a lot behind.
When Demonic pact overrides ToWr, it overrides the whole effect, including the 3%crit debuff on the target mob (I've heard rumors this may change? I sure hope so). The loss of 3% crit is significant, becasue unlike the ret pally substitute, the ToWr debuff is an aura that affects all targets in range, and doesn't need to be applied - its automatically put on when the totem is dropped. Anotherwords, you have to manage the raid quite well to avoid the loss of 3% crit cancelling any benefits the extra spell power has.
Meta builds don't bring as much personal dps as some others, and as a rule a person who plays a warlock is a person who doesn't want to sacrifice personal gain for others. That sounds very "RP," but I 100% assure you its true. The average warlock player is far more arrogant, and has a far bigger epeen problem than your average player.
Those are pretty much the two main reasons not to use the build - personal dps is not as high as some others, and while demonic pact is awesome, its not as great as it might look on paper.
edit - Not sure how i forgot to mention this - in order for a demonic pact build to be any good, you need top end gear. Exact numbers are impossible to give, but as a rough guideline, if you dont run 1900+ dmg from gear, preferably 2000+dmg from gear (gear only, before buffs), chances are the pact builds are not worth it. You pretty much need to be running full 7.5 or equivalent, and TT.
Post by
asakawa
i don't see DP ever being good for a group that has a lock and an ele. shaman. how much extra spellpower would you need to make it worth losing the crit? now how much better even that
that
does it have to be to make it worth the personal dps loss and the 5 points spent in demo to get it?
using some rough stat weightings from the sticky 3% crit equates to ~142 spellpower. this is beyond the scope of demonic pact to produce during wrath i'd guess as it would require the warlock to have 4220 spellpower.
with this in mind it would be irresponsible for a lock to spec into DP if there would ever be a shaman along.
what if they fixed it and DP didn't over-write ToW?
now we have a situation where the shaman is still going to drop a ToW for the crit so there's no benefit from the shaman being freed up to drop a different totem so he question becomes purely about how much SP is needed to balance the loss in personal dps?
of course this is incredibly difficult to judge but a warlock who has 3k SP with raid buffs will provide 20 more SP to the raid than the shaman. is this worth it? possibly.
a demonolgy warlock becomes invaluable for a group without a ele. shaman
or
a mage. the lock will be giving a big SP buff as well as the 5% crit debuff. it's just a shame that with current mechanics using DP could actually be detrimental to the group.
(ps.
in other words
)
Post by
irharry
I completely agree that fixing the ToWr debuff would be the best solution, it would make this discussion null and void.
I really do think that demonic pact is a worthwhile buff nonetheless though - considering a retardin does apply the 3% debuff as well. The only time the retardin buff is really inferior is on aoe pulls - not many boss fights are.
In terms of how much the demonic pact buff is worth to a raid, I personally run just over 3300spell power buffed. My gear is close to best in slot, but not quite, I have a few missing pieces that would top me out to just on 3400.
Your "average" raid has 6 healers and 8-9 caster dps (leaving 2 tanks and 8-9 melee dps). The numbers vary a LOT of course, but if you assume that each caster gains approx 1 dps per point of spell power (which should average out to about right), you get,
8x50 = 400dps gained. Even if you then reduce that by 10% to allow a 90% uptime on pact, you get a rDPS increase of about 360.
That number is on the lower side, a portion of the time pact is going to reflect procs, once you get your illusion of the dragon soul stacked thats another 20 per caster, and you also have the option of the shammy dropping a dps totem instead. Add the healing bonus in as well....
I agree asa that speccing DP with poor gear and without a retardin in the raid would be a very silly move. That said, for all its serious flaws, I really do see it as a viable buff to spec for.
Post by
asakawa
hmm, 360 dps would be about my guestimate (wow, my spell checker
likes
that word O.o) for how much dps a lock would lose by speccing deep demo.
DP seems to me like a buff which can be amazing for a group that lacks a couple of key classes but just doesn't bring enough for a well balanced raid group. i don't know much about shaman though (mine only got to 36 before i got really bored of it), what would a deep ele. shaman drop if they weren't required to do ToW?
Post by
Matic
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=IcZbG0hkhZEb0qrcuVoAcot
This is the build that I would "think" could be viable for raiding, with a bit of damage mitigation coming from soul link, and that "oh crap my pet died!' solution with fel domination.
Although I am one to commonly reorganize my build to better suit my gear, I think that this one would perform decently.
Any suggestions would be welcomed
Post by
irharry
i don't know much about shaman though (mine only got to 36 before i got really bored of it), what would a deep ele. shaman drop if they weren't required to do ToW?
Searing = 400 DPS give or take
Fire Elemental = 900 DPS give or take, but on a CD
Post by
asakawa
ah, k. so that's something to factor in too then.
Post by
Kangi
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=IcZbG0hkhZEb0qrcuVoAcot
This is the build that I would "think" could be viable for raiding, with a bit of damage mitigation coming from soul link, and that "oh crap my pet died!' solution with fel domination.
Although I am one to commonly reorganize my build to better suit my gear, I think that this one would perform decently.
Any suggestions would be welcomed
Heavy-destruction with improved shadow bolt? No.
Heavy-destruction without any imp-improving talents? No.
Your build is similiar to
3/13/55
, listed at the OP, go along those lines.
Post by
137829
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
irharry
Sadly, shadow dest builds do not exist. If you want a shadowbolt spam build then you pretty much have to go meta.
I have seen some interesting versions of 0/41/30 and 0/31/40(
something like this
or
this
) based around shadow - using the succubus rather than the imp or the felguard, but they just dont function very well.
Post by
137829
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
343391
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
343118
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
343391
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
347954
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
irharry
follow my link to the EJ thread showing simcrafted performance of all cookie cutter specs - I didn't bother to put in my own or write them out simply because Zak's are better.
I've been saying some good things about the demo pact build - and I stand by them. I very strongly think its a build that has a lot of merit, but the one thing it does NOT have is "top" personal dps boneybruce. Its personal dps is far from awful, but it as the trees stand atm, its not going to be top of the heap.
Post by
irharry
dbl post, so shoot me!
Tolida, you keep spamming this forum asking for a shadowbolt build. The only shadowbolt build that is raid viable, is a meta build - how often do we have to tell you before you stop asking/making new threads about it?
You posted a build almost point for point identical to the one I posted just above you, where along side mentioning it was the best of a bad bunch, I also mentioned that it simply doesn't function very well.
Check the builds I've posted in the OP. Don't believe me? Fair call - I'm fallible. Check Blightmans 3.1 talent sticky. Still don't believe us? Ok then, go have a look on EJ. Still don't believe us? There is obviously a super secret shadowbolt build that is so uber we just don't want to tell anyone - to join the club and recieve the sacred knowledge you must kill 13 babies, drop your pants, and run around the sacrificial table 7 times waving your hands in the air and yelling AIAIAIAIAIAIAIAIAIA at the top of your lungs.
Post by
229105
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Maxlock
0/40/31
i like this build a lot but i just want to make sure that i understand it completely:
Imp out therefor 5%crit + 5% damage increased for fire spells
Demonic Tactics
3/5 means 6% crit
Backlash
1/3 which means 1% crit
Devastation
: 1/1 which means 5% crit
so that's 17% crit just from talents.
would be best if i used Firestone or Spellstone? and are my calculations right? and is it wise to use Soul Link with the Imp out?
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