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Valid Question for Raiding Tanks
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Post by
addohm
Upon browsing TankSpot.com I came across
this
article.
Although it is meant for warriors, I found it interesting. It, to me, raises the question, how important is expertise and hit for us DK's, compared to everyone else, as tanks?
Most of our threat generating abilities come from spells that are based on our attack power modifiers, and most of them do not actually count as a weapon swing (DnD\HB\IT), and are more a spell, where expertise is useless.
Our attack power modifiers, and damage, are generally altered by our specing in to Bladed Armor and Two-Handed weapon spec. Simply put, by having more armor, you will generate more threat (ignoring misses\dodges\parries). Now I know that is "too simple", but it is the most basic truth to our threat building.
I don't find myself missing much, maybe a few times per raid, but I am no where near 8% +hit, I believe I am at ~4-5% hit (at work, armory is blocked). I do get dodged, but that is usually a Frost or Plague strike, which isn't that huge, as you don't lose the runes\RP if missed\dodged\parried. I can see how we need +hit as it applies to everything we do as a tank, but expertise is arguable, since as a frost tank, most of you're true threat builders aren't really dodge\parry'able.
I am speaking somewhat partial to frost tanks, but it also applies to Unholy just as much, if not more. Blood probably would require more expertise then either Frost or Unholy.
Discuss.
Post by
116684
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Post by
addohm
I'm not sure if Obliterate is a prime example, but you are right. It is situational to the spec though, imo. Yes, I can see how using it would hurt, but as a frost tank, I do not use obliterate, ever. It is not even on my bar anymore :) I get plenty more threat with the runes, using HB, then I would ever get with Obliterate, without glyphing it, and even then, a "chance to crit" to me is not worth, a stable guarenteed TPS.
I do, however, see you're point. I still think that expertise is on the bottom of the priority list until someone can prove me wrong :)
Post by
186549
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Post by
Sree
Well if you're frost strikes are being dodged, you definately need more hit rating.
Post by
Kristy
Well if you're frost strikes are being dodged, you definately need more hit rating.
Just to clear things up I assume you mean missed, since frost strike cant be dodged, blocked or parried anyway.
Post by
122030
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186549
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184358
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Post by
addohm
I'm not sure if Obliterate is a prime example, but you are right. It is situational to the spec though, imo. Yes, I can see how using it would hurt, but as a frost tank, I do not use obliterate, ever. It is not even on my bar anymore :) I get plenty more threat with the runes, using HB, then I would ever get with Obliterate, without glyphing it, and even then, a "chance to crit" to me is not worth, a stable guarenteed TPS.
I do, however, see you're point. I still think that expertise is on the bottom of the priority list until someone can prove me wrong :)
You clearly haven't tanked Sapphiron.
Enjoy having him resist the vast majority of your Frost-based abilites. I tanked him today, I HAD to use obliterate to continue to generate steady threat, because he would resist Howling Blast utterly sometimes, and a large chunk of Frost Strike's damage just didn't go through.
Obliterate on the other hand, kept banging out it's beautiful 6k crits, and kept the aggro on me; coupled with rune-strike I had no issues, but there was no way i could rely on HB+FS to hold aggro in that situation.
I don't have to, or need to. We have our druid tank Saph, otherwise I tank everything else, and the druid OT's. Never the less, most of these posts confirm my suspicion that expertise is last priority after capping hit and a sufficient amount of avoidance, as a frost tank.
Post by
Aris
Every time they parry one of your attacks, the delay for their next attack against you is reduced. In essence, the more they parry, the more damage you take, and if any type of "strike" is in your main arsenal, then expertise is very important to you. Its not just a threat generation stat, its a damage mitigation stat. This has been common knowledge to prot warriors for over a year now.
Post by
addohm
Every time they parry one of your attacks, the delay for their next attack against you is reduced. In essence, the more they parry, the more damage you take, and if any type of "strike" is in your main arsenal, then expertise is very important to you. Its not just a threat generation stat, its a damage mitigation stat. This has been common knowledge to prot warriors for over a year now.
We all know this, but we all also know that there are 2, possibly 3, skills in our rotations, that are parryable.
Plague Strike
Rune Strike
Obliterate
I don't use Oblit.
Frost Strike is a better RP dump then Rune Strike.
Plague Strike is situational, and not always in a rotation.
Warriors on the other hand, have only skills that require weapon (or shield) swings. I ignore taunt because it is not truely threat generating. It is far more valuable to a warrior or druid, then it would ever be for a paladin or DK.
Post by
116684
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25614
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122030
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Post by
addohm
I am quite surprise that your say frost tanks doesnt use PS.
More damage is always good. Howling blast is good but obli scales with weapon damage. I personally find that obli generate more threat on single target then howling blast.
As for that 13% spell hit, im not sure if that will make or break a tank threat generation but it certainly isnt to me. I have only 5.34% hit rating but i dont find it disturbing me. I do miss here and there but usually I dont just drop aggro because of those misses.
As for sapp, i tank him in frost spec. I don't really have a problem with it. Of cause i use obli in all single boss fight instead of HB so sapp isnt any different to me.
Edit: As for RP dump, I havent done any maths so i cant comment on whether FS will yield more damage or RS will yield more damage. But one thing for sure is that FS will take up 1 GCD whereas RS will not. So i tend to go for RS rather then FS. (There are times when you are just waiting for the rune regeneration so probably thats where u do your dump).
I didn't say I don't use PS, I just said it is situational. On a boss I want to get immediate aggro on, assuming no adds, I will IT>PS>HB>BS>BS>Deathchill>FS. I've never ever had aggro pulled off me with that combo, and I am speaking in terms of instant DPS (heroism, cooldowns, etc). With adds though, IT>Pest>Deathchill>HB. If Deathchill is down, DnD>IT>PS>Pest.
Edit: My point I am making is like I said earlier, it is situational.
Just to pick up on your point of FS vs. RS though, surely RS should be preferential due to the amount of extra threat that it generates?
I macro FS to RS so that I'll use FS when it's available, but if I have the extra RP I'll also throw in a RS. Also assuming I don't have the RP for an FS, I'm likely to still have the RP for an RS after opening as a tank. I don't use RP as a main attack mainly because if I use it too much (which is likely on some occasions) I would never have the RP for FS :)
Post by
100975
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