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Shadowstep: Daggers or ???
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Post by
104395
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Post by
Remx
Before 2.3 there was no such thing as a viable shadowstep build. Since 2.3, many lay claim to the fact that shadowstep is now somewhat viable in serious PVP. But only if it's a hemo build.
I've not looked in on the subject much because well, I'm not convinced that shadowstep is yet the talent it should be. 0/34/27 still seems a lot more appealing to me. For this reason I'm probably not the best source for information on an exact build, but I will offer one that I threw together as a kind of educated guess:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xZhbV0bZxrfoMGRsxst
Be wary however, news of an imminent hemo nerf has risen, seeing the damage bonus lowered from 125% to 110%. Don't be too worried though, it's only going to serve as a deterrent for the mindless drones who went hemo merely because of the bandwagon.
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104395
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43040
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104395
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94327
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Post by
Remx
Yours is the concise and informative post I was looking for Lieandra. Thank you. I have a long way to go yet and I'm new to the class. I appreciate the advice.
Oh christ please tell me you're kidding.
Lieandra has been offering terrible advice on these forums for the past few days. The above post is no exception. Yes, Lieandra offered his opinions to you in a clear-cut post. The problem is that his opinions are awfully maladjusted.
I'm pretty sick of picking apart his posts just to get my point across. Have a look at any of the threads on this forum he's used to peddle his 50 deep subtlety rubbish. If you're even remotely knowledgeable about the rogue class you'll be able to see why you shouldn't take any of his advice.
There are parts of it I feel I need to quote though.
With Remx's tree. The improved gouge is not totally viable unless you are PvP'ing on your own against one single player. When in BG's, there will be multiple players attacking the same guy, so using the talent points in Imp Gouge was a waste in my experience as the next hit on that player ends the gouge. The three talent points would be better used in maximizing Camouflage for the increase in Stealth speed, which allows you to reach them quicker for a Shadowstep should you be stealthed. In PvE, I have used the increased speed to Distract and reach Stealth sensing humanoids for a well timed Sap. Even if discovered after the Sap, you still have 45 seconds without that mob.
He's basing his advice on talent builds off of their performance in
battlegrounds
. This should tell you something.
In the build I linked I gave you a path which took imp. gouge of 3/5 lightning reflexes. Ask any PVP seasoned rogue, they'll have done the same. Yet Lieandra seems to think that 5/5 precision is possible without first spending 5 points in the combat tree.
The second part of the above quote is completely laughable.
His suggestion for Imp Sprint is good since it gives 100% chance to remove movement impairing abilities, and saves you a Vanish and Preparation. But the CD on it has proven to me as non-viable when you have another movement impairing ability put on you after the first one. Considering you have to use 10 Talent points to get the Imp Sprint, I would not suggest getting it for a Subtlety build. Also remember to consider Cloak of Shadows for removing Movement Impairing effects (the non physical ones).
Did he actually just try to argue the viability of imp. sprint? He did. Do I need to say more?
I could go on to quote any part of the rest of his post and show you exactly why he's peddling some god awful information, but to be honest I don't think I can handle having to continuously rebut the most nonsensical of arguments. Either you can take his advice and completely do yourself in, or you can look elsewhere for your information (something I strongly suggest you do). I suggest going to the official rogue forums to ask for the opinions of some seasoned arena rogues. I've already given you mine.
I don't mean to use this as a silver bullet, but I find it's an effective way of convincing others not to follow the words of misinformed scrubs. The armoury pages of those scrubs.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mannoroth&n=Lieandra
Take a look at his character sheet and his talents. Tell me in all honesty that you'd be glad to follow the advice of someone so inexperienced and I'll leave you to it. If you want some real advice, ask a rogue with something more to his name than some 54 shadow resistance boots.
I still use Hemo with faster weapons in PvE simply for the party debuff, then Shiv away for the CP's. I do understand that 2.4 speed is the way to go. But I still opt for faster weapons since I prefer applying a lot of poisons. Personal choice in this matter here is your best bet.
Oh what the hell...
Do you seriously need
me
to tell you that this guy is an absolute clown?
For your own sake I highly recommend you disregard Lieandra's post in its entirety. There's simply no describing how terrible a rogue he is.
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96207
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43040
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43040
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Post by
Remx
You know. As soon as I finished my post I knew that you Remx would cry like a little girl for taking your given advice in an area you know nothing about and picking it apart. to quote you:
For this reason I'm probably not the best source for information on an exact build, but I will offer one that I threw together as a kind of educated guess:...
I really don't need to go any further to prove you know nothing about what you are talking about, since you clearly stated you have no idea about the subject.
Shadowstep specs are not my area of expertise, as I'm yet to be convinced that they're superior to 34/27 ARPrep and as such it's not often I'll run with one. I do guarantee you I know the ins and outs of any of the rogue trees better than yourself, and I certainly have more of an idea as to what makes a good spec. You have 50 points in subtlety for god's sake, and you're trying to lecture me on specs? Step into an arena and take on some decent players before you continue proclaiming yourself as knowledgeable about subtlety.
Perhaps you'd like to show me where I stated that I've no idea? I made an educated guess at a shadowstep build from my knowledge of the talent trees. At any rate, my offerings thus far have been far more solid than anything I've seen you link.
I will however entertain your second post just from a mere perspective of "FUN". Which is what I find your lack of knowledge and argument on this subject to be. Yes. That means that I find you to be entertaining. /smile
The only thing remotely funny here is how painfully clueless you are. Actually, it's just painful.
I'm pretty sick of picking apart his posts just to get my point across. Have a look at any of the threads on this forum he's used to peddle his 50 deep subtlety rubbish. If you're even remotely knowledgeable about the rogue class you'll be able to see why you shouldn't take any of his advice.
Please. Show all of the posts that you are speaking about. I would really like to know which ones they are. That said. Read your second sentence in the above quote. Can you see what you have done? No? Thats because you write with emotion and not with thought. You have to understand that these forums and posts are made by people that are either unsure or un-knowledgeable (as you are) about a particular subject. for you to say to someone "...If you're even remotely knowledgeable about the rogue class you'll be able to see why you shouldn't take any of his advice.", and then not follow through with any further information. Well... YOU JUST HELP NO ONE. What good does that do for some one asking for help? NONE. Please. I have even posted in another of your posts that you should stop berating people that offer advice with substance following when you do not offer any substance for your.... well... your nothing since you never provide any information.
But let us now speak of SUBSTANCE and go further with some more quotes provided by you.
Every single post you've made of these forums has been laden with misinformation as a result of your inexperience and overall lack of knowledge. I don't form my opinions from my emotion, I form them from research and reading I've done since I started playing my rogue at release. I form them from collaborating with other experienced rogues and engaging in ongoing discussions about x, y or z. The most emotion you'll notice me posting with is the occasional pang of frustration when I constantly need to deter others from taking the horrendously ill advice you offer.
He's basing his advice on talent builds off of their performance in battlegrounds. This should tell you something.
In the build I linked I gave you a path which took imp. gouge of 3/5 lightning reflexes. Ask any PVP seasoned rogue, they'll have done the same. Yet Lieandra seems to think that 5/5 precision is possible without first spending 5 points in the combat tree.
The second part of the above quote is completely laughable.
The above quote really shows how emotional you were when you wrote your 'response' in this post, for you failed to actually read my statement. Yes. I am aware that you QUOTED the statement. But you were to emotional to understand it. And I say that solely because I don't want to think of you as someone that is illiterate or ignorant. Though you seem to be pushing that envelope pretty far.
You may as well drop the whole emotional argument Freud, it's not doing you any good.
Lets look at the above quote and take notice to where the punctuations are. Those signify concise thoughts that begin and END. So I did not base my advice on BG's.
You're certainly not basing your advice on arenas, so if not battlegrounds then what? World PVP and duels? I hate to break it to you but any old gimp can jump someone who is farming and come out the victor. PVP doesn't consist primarily of sitting around all day dueling or farming honour, it includes (and to the largest extent) arena play. Something you've no idea about.
I do not advocate Precision at all, and I clearly stated that '...in MY experience...' Improved Gouge is a waste when going Subtlety.
There are various, no NUMEROUS reasons why, you would not waste the talent points in Improved Gouge while Subtlety Spec; group fighting is just one of the various reason. In PvP and being Subtlety, I have two extra Vanishes after my initial Stealth. If I need to have a third
distance
Stealth. We use 10 second Blind (efficiently used IMHO as a 4 second bandage -if needed- and 6 seconds for distance Stealth). And any Rogue that has ever fought a Frost Mage can tell you that 5.5 seconds of distance is not enough to go out of combat -without blowing sprint- with them due to their spell range. So there are too many cons with to little pros to talent Improved Gouge.
No good rogue dumps all of their points in subtlety when 'going subtlety'. Any decent rogue build is a hybrid of at least two trees, and doesn't often have more than 45 points invested in any single one.
I think your lack of understanding of the points I'm making stems from you never having progressed in the arena (have you stepped into one at all?). As far as I can tell your PVP experiences are limited to duels, world encounters and battlegrounds, so you're in no position to comment on the mechanics of proper end-game PVP. That much becomes clear when reading your post.
Precision is important for keeping your damage up after your cooldowns have been used, and imp sprint is irreplaceable, but I'll get to that in a moment. The trade-off is between improved gouge and an extra 3% dodge chance, not between improved gouge and any of the subtlety talents.
Post by
Remx
*Also, the seasoned PvP Rogues that you speak of are in majority a Combat / Assassination spec of some form. Not Subtlety. So again. good information for the Subtlety tree is lacking there also.
Most of the seasoned PVP rogues are ARPrep, actually. That's a combination of combat and subtlety. I have 27 points in subtlety myself.
With your lack of use in the Setup talent, but your choice of use for Lighting Reflexes; clearly shows that you again no nothing of what you speak of.
Setup is a filler talent, it's not at all great in most situations.
If you were to decide to keep the 12 points in Combat for the Precision, you would be better placing the 2 points in Sinister Strike to lower your energy cost for that attack. It would put the attack on par with the Hemo attack and provide you an option during combat for a harder hitting attack.
I honestly can't believe you're serious. There's absolutely no reason to be sinister striking with a hemo spec. 2 points in improved sinister strike is an utter waste.
But again. Precision to me is a waste as you normally can get by with +100 Hit in PvP, and I have already addressed the use of Improved Sprint in my original post.
I don't know what kind of PVP gear you're wearing, but I'd like to know your resilience and HP if you've got over 100 hit without precision. Oh that's right, not much, because you don't arena. Perhaps some honour gear such as the HWL/GM pieces or season 1? Nope? You're PVPing with an assortment of quest and instance blues aren't you?
So, to your comment of:
Did he actually just try to argue the viability of imp. sprint? He did. Do I need to say more?
I did not argue it. I made a statement concerning it - of my own opinion - which happens to be pretty accurate. The Improved sprint may be what a Combat or Assassination spec Rogue needs in their inventory. But as a Subtlety Rogue which has Vanish with the improved CD timers.... NO! The reason is simple, and if you knew what you were talking about; you would never have put your statement in the limelight. *Vanish BRAKES IMPAIRING AFFECTS. Oh, and one more thing. You would need to talent Endurance in order for Improved Sprint to be of viable use. If you fail to do that (as you have) your Improved Sprint will be on a 5 MINUTE CD timer. What good is a once ever 5 minutes ability? AGAIN: YOU did POORLY with your suggested Subtlety Build in that regard.
That's probably the low point of your post. With improved sprint and preparation you now have an additional two snare breaks, and you can afford to use vanish to line up another opener. You'd understand the importance of this is you played in the arena. Take a look at the rogues on 2k+ rating teams, the majority of them will be 0/31/30, 0/33/28 or 0/34/27. They'll all have improved sprint.
Moving on to the pieces you left my post in (LMAO - You are so funny).
I don't mean to use this as a silver bullet, but I find it's an effective way of convincing others not to follow the words of misinformed scrubs. The armoury pages of those scrubs.
That above quote.... errr "...bullet..." (?) - is a very hilariously thing for you to say. IMO: What a waste of silver. Could have used that to buy some Swiftthistle. I do not hide my Armory. I use the same character name here as in WoW. And if anyone wants to ask me for the link. I am more than willing to provide it. Like mrfoughtforever, I play WoW to have fun. Not to live my life through it. But just to point and laugh at you a little bit more. Let me point out what you state after that: "If you want some real advice, ask a rogue with something more to his name than some 54 shadow resistance boots.".
Something comes to mind whenever I hear that statement. (I do get it quite a bit.) What comes to mind is this: The sight of every one running in FEAR while I'm still attacking because of the chance of resistance provided. (That too happens quite a bit.) Now, being as I raid, having these boots also serves the purpose of a pre-planned purchase for the 7th boss of BT. That is something your experience should have shown you before you let yourself get so emotional over my post. But I digress, "...On with the show!..."
You're only digging yourself into a deeper hole here. No rogue who takes himself seriously goes into battle wearing shadow resistance as part of his standard PVP set (especially not those boots, they're utter garbage). For you to even try to argue the validity of doing so is merely another testament to your utter lack of knowledge, skill and experience.
I guarantee that no BT guild is going to let you anywhere near their runs, certainly not on Shahraz. If one somehow did they'd soon realise what a mistake they made.
I could go on forever about how stupid, inexperienced and blisteringly ignorant you are. But I feel from this point on that would be a total waste of my time. I've already dismissed you as terrible on more than one occasion, and I'm sure many others will once they read your last post. Continue to argue with me if you so desire, I won't be replying, I won't have to. You'll never be right.
I'm going to go offer some proper advice to those who seek it now, I just hope that the unfortunate souls you reply to from here on out are able to see you for the scrub you are.
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103293
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105106
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Post by
Niemals
I love your druid chestpiece Lieandra. :)
Post by
43040
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43040
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Post by
Remx
Again Lieandra, my knowledge and experience are far more reaching than your own when it comes to matters concerning the rogue class.This extends to all three talent trees. I assure you I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Claim the counter all you want, but you're not convincing anyone.
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