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10.2.7
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No more tanking with spell damage?
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Post by
215762
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dunsinane
Yes. Welcome to two months ago.
Post by
xaratherus
There's been several threads on this.
Righteous Fury still affects Holy damage threat. That means, to my mind, that Holy damage is still going to make up a good chunk of a Tankadin's threat output. The fact that a Talent is included that translates a portion of your Stamina into spell power backs that idea.
However, Prot also has several new Talents that rely on Strength or block value, and their damage and threat output is pretty high.
So not completely true that Paladins will solely rely on (or even primarily, IMO) Strength for threat output; you're just going to be getting your spell power from Talents rather than directly from gear.
Post by
Dunsinane
There's been several threads on this.
Righteous Fury still affects Holy damage threat. That means, to my mind, that Holy damage is still going to make up a good chunk of a Tankadin's threat output. The fact that a Talent is included that translates a portion of your Stamina into spell power backs that idea.
However, Prot also has several new Talents that rely on Strength or block value, and their damage and threat output is pretty high.
So not completely true that Paladins will solely rely on
(or even primarily, IMO)
Strength for threat output; you're just going to be getting your spell power from Talents rather than directly from gear.
Yes, primarily. Spellpower does not even come close to Strength as a threat stat. Your opinion is directly contradicted by every piece of information both from the numbers on the beta servers and blue posts on the WoW forums.
1 STR = 2.3 AP (with Divine Strength)
1SP =, well, 1 SP
Coefficients for tanking abilities (current build):
Hammer of the Righteous: based off weapon DPS - favors STR
Shield of Righteousness: based off of Block Value - favors STR
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption per swing: +1.2% SP - favors SP
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption 5-stack DoT: 19.5% AP + 9% SP - favors STR
Consecration: 32% SP + 32% AP - favors STR
Judgements (base): 32% SP + 20% AP - favors STR
The recent changes to HotR (normalizing the damage and buffing it) along with our already insane threat and some recent comments by
Ghostcrawler
would indicate that they're attempting to steer us to traditional warrior tanking weapons - fast, with defensive stats rather than threat - for our primary choice. This completely removes Spellpower from our tanking sets.
Post by
blademeld
1 STR = 2.3 AP (with Divine Strength)
1SP =, well, 1 SP
Coefficients for tanking abilities (current build):
Hammer of the Righteous: based off weapon DPS - favors STR
Shield of Righteousness: based off of Block Value - favors STR
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption per swing: +1.2% SP - favors SP
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption 5-stack DoT: 19.5% AP + 9% SP - favors STR
Consecration: 32% SP + 32% AP - favors STR
Judgements (base): 32% SP + 20% AP - favors STR
? your math does not make sense to me.
Post by
Adross
Here let me make what they said above all simple.
All of our damaging spells now scale with our Attack Power, our AP comes for STR. So we will now stack Str and Stam.
Post by
blademeld
Yes, I believe that has already been established, the only real Q is warrior or caster weapon.
Post by
Dunsinane
I'll break it down further, then. There are two points being made:
Point #1 - Strength is a superior threat stat to Spellpower.
Point #2 - Avoidance weapons will be a standard part of our arsenal.
Point #1 is demonstrated by the math given. Because of the new coefficients on nearly all of our abilities, a point of Strength is significantly superior to a point of Spellpower, no matter the source.
Point #2 is demonstrated by our friendly neighborhood developer's comment. Even without using a weapon designed for threat, we still have little difficulty in keeping mobs on us in the beta/PTR. Strength is on nearly every piece of armor we have, and in significant quantities. Both of our new, active threat generating abilities (ShoR, HotR) don't use Spellpower at ALL, and generate significantly more on-demand threat than anything else we have.
This allows us to no longer have to choose a weapon solely for its ability to generate threat as we did in BC - how many dozens of times have the posters in this very forum pointed out to aspiring tanks that their threat comes from their weapon? That necessity no longer applies, and this allows us to minimize our mitigation disadvantage through gear with regard to warriors, as they were able to place defensive stats in an extra slot while we were unable to due to mechanics.
Post by
balu0
Yes, I believe that has already been established, the only real Q is warrior or caster weapon.
Warrior weapon...
Post by
138517
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
84594
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
Strength is better than spell damage, however, we can approximate ~200 spell damage for ~50 weapon DPS (compare caster and melee weapons from kara)
fact 1: dps does not effect most abilities whereas spell damage does
fact 2: spell damage weapons of the same ilevel are currently slightly better for threat generation if all abilities are used on all cooldowns
fact 3: math > opinions
live with it.
Post by
Dunsinane
Strength is better than spell damage, however, we can approximate ~200 spell damage for ~50 weapon DPS (compare caster and melee weapons from kara)
fact 1: dps does not effect most abilities whereas spell damage does
fact 2: spell damage weapons of the same ilevel are currently slightly better for threat generation if all abilities are used on all cooldowns
fact 3: math > opinions
live with it.
fact 4: strawman arguments are logical fallacies
No one is arguing that you will not generate more threat with a spelldamage weapon over a tanking weapon given current itemization.
However, our threat output at this current time is absolutely insane. Wowgeek has posted his own experience as a tank in the beta recently, and you can read stories similar to his on pretty much every forum out there. Elitist Jerks has a post
here
which seems to indicate that we have a further unmentioned threat multiplier baked into Righteous Fury. Nobody is pulling mobs off of us, period.
Conversely, stacking the 680+ defense rating needed to be uncrittable at 80 is a major task. Then there's the need for further avoidance stats. These are significantly more important than any threat gains from a spellpower weapon.
fact 5: the threat gap isn't significant
Maintankadin has a
spreadsheet
for running the numbers on various tanking weapons. The results are interesting, to say the least.
- The Hammer of Judgement is equivalent to the Merciless Gladiator's Slicer.
- The Tempest of Chaos is equivalent to the Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer
- The Titansteel Bonecrusher is only ~50 TPS behind the Titansteel Guardian - the best crafted weapons available so far in WotLK. That's 50 out of more than 3500 TPS. Dropping the 140 AP the Bonecrusher provides to pick up an equivalent weapon with defensive stats (and strength!) will still leave tankadins with a very comfortable threat output.
Post by
blademeld
Please read the thread again.
fact 4: strawman arguments are logical fallacies
No one is arguing that you will not generate more threat with a spelldamage weapon over a tanking weapon given current itemization.
Hammer of the Righteous: based off weapon DPS - favors STR
I was clarifying this point.
fact 5: the threat gap isn't significant
fact 1: dps does not effect most abilities whereas spell damage does
fact 2: spell damage weapons of the same ilevel are currently
slightly better
for threat generation if all abilities are used on all cooldowns
fact 3: math > opinions
Go through my wording.
Post by
Dunsinane
Ah - I was linking your post back to mine rather than Soranthalas'.
I plead the inherent confusion caused by jumping arguments in internet forums and 20 hours without sleep.
Post by
blademeld
I like pie.
(translation: I feel your pain.)
Post by
SuperstarGoddess
I'm glad that someone cleared all of this up before the ptr goes live. Being that my prot pally (almost level 63 now) is my first tank char and now they're changing everything on me, I feel a little lost.
Post by
blademeld
btw, paladins are the only tanks who can use both spell damage and melee weapons for tanking, added to that multi-tanking will presumably prefer spell damage weapons and you can heal with a spell damage weapon in WotLK, I'll take that as a good reason to take spell damage weapons anytime.
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