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[Rogue] Hit Rating, what is that?
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Post by
Feanora
You explained it fine, but it is still a linear stat up to your cap after 9% hit.
We're arguing different things. I'm saying hit rating in a vacuum scales negatively, as its value decreases in comparison to other stats as it is stacked higher. You're looking at it strictly in terms of how it affects DPS. It's a moot point anyway, and probably too abstract a point for this thread; in any case, we're both in agreement as far as its effects and value.
Ahhh...okay, that makes sense. As for the numbers of % of damage, rogues in general do 55-60% white damage, BF is represents another 4-6%, rupture another 4-5%, and poisons 4-6%.
There's no blade flurry on most boss fights; that dps is translated directly into white damage. As you gain haste, your white damage improves; I would refer you to check out some of the top rogue dps parses at
the WWS Scoreboard
, such as
this one
and
this one.
As for the rest of it, I'm merely pointing out what happens in an extreme case. While it's rare, I've seen rogues without precision, or in straight PvP gear with no hit gems, or whatever. We're both entirely in agreement that it's a moot point in practicality, and I fully respect your insight on the matter, as you seem to be considerably more well-informed than most on the vagueries of roguecraft.
Post by
107997
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Post by
Feanora
No I don't think we're talking about different things though. Once you've taken the slight loss in value after removing the 9% miss for your instant attacks, each point of hit equally affects DPS until you cap. The value of the 1 point of HR that moves you from 179 HR to 180 HR is equal to the point of HR that moves you from 294 HR to 295 HR and is equal to the point that moves you from 341 HR to 342 HR (if you need to go that high...I do).
You're talking about value in relation to DPS. I'm talking about it in relation to other stats.
Post by
107997
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Post by
Guran
This is the major reason why you should always gem/enchant for expertise/hit, it's simply far more beneficial then crit. Agi/AP is generally speaking not worth stacking if you don't have the multipliers to go with it. Even after you have capped out yellow attacks hit is very powerful, Although Agility comes close enough to combine for socket bonuses. Stat weights for gear choices is something for another thread.I was thinking like a Mage there, so changed my wording to indicate it's value related to others rather then it being your #1 priority (which should be to actually gem/enchant your gear :P)
Post by
98879
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Post by
107997
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Post by
191301
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107997
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Post by
Raelis
Thanks for the interesting debate.
One question (and simple answers please) but what way should you gear for mutilate spec.
I understand the relative arguments regarding “the one that improves your DPS” but as a general guide.
So for example if you have 200 hit rating and have some gemable gear… should you add more hit or…
Thanks
As I understand mutilate spec for pve, you gem agi for red gems and hit/agi for yellow if you are going for socket bonuses otherwise just use straight agi gems.
Post by
Joltacks
This is a very interesting thread.
If a set of gear with 200 HR + more of other stats will yield greater DPS than a set of gear with 300HR and less of those other stats, the first set is better. More DPS is good.
If more DPS is good then you want more and more Attack Power. AP directly boosts your minimum damage. Without any +hit you'll hit like 70% of the time anyway, maybe a little more often. But with more AP you'll be hitting harder and doing more damage over time. PvP gear has no +hit. So, I guess Blizzard thinks rogues will do just fine with 30% chance to miss anyway. S2 doesn't add any +hit and not much AP. I have some s2 and when I'm in it my AP is about 300 points lower when compared to my PvE gear (my DPS is lower). Of course my resil is up with s2 and so is my crit. S2 Weapons are some of the best DPS boosters you can get though. I would recommend grinding honor just for the weps for PvE, uh, but not the armors, no. Greens and blues are better PvE and DPS equipment.
The first inflection point is the special attack cap, which for a properly-specced combat rogue is 4%, or 64 hit rating.
This is nice to know. Never missing yellow attacks sounds neat. So it sounds to me like 64 hit is important, but anything past that isn't as important and I might rather have more AP/crit gems. It also seems to me that the more +hit you have the less valuable it becomes, but honestly you can never have enough AP because it increases your DPS. It seems like it would be very smart to make sure you have at least 64 hit and then a bunch of AP gems and AP/Crit gems for those yellow slots. Of course if your white damage is 60% of your total damage then getting more +hit makes sense because you'd do more white damage over time. It would make the rogue that much more effective. The rogue would hit more often. So, that 30% gap (or chance to miss) narrowed to say 5% miss (because you got lots of hit now) you'd then be hitting 95% of the time. That means you're 25% more effective. It also means you're doing more damage over time. But what if you instead decide to stack AP and crit? An epic gem red socket adds 20 AP. 20 AP alone doesn't increase your DPS very much, but a lot of 20 AP gems might. How much? If you have say +17 hit rating it will increase the chance you have to hit not your minimum damage. The question is what does more damage over time? A little +hit or a little +AP? Over time they both add up. The only time you would ask yourself, whats more important, AP or +hit, is when you get a new piece of armor with more AP and less +hit than the piece you're considering replacing it with. Personally I find it almost impossible to tell when the stats are so small (like 20 AP or 17 hit rating). Its like me wanting to try one piece on, reset recount, kill the same kind of mob for an hour and then look at my DPS. Record it, change gear, reset recount then go kill the same mobs again for another hour. Whats the DPS difference? The higher DPS is better (duh). Anyway, attack power will increase your minimum damage, while hit rating will increase you chance to hit. Just have to find out if your attack power will make up for the complete, zero damage misses. So say you hit for 50 points of damage every time you hit. Lets say you swing your weapon 100 times. You hit 70% of the time. Thats 70 hits. 70 times 50 is 3500. So you did 3500 damage over 100 swings. Now say you add some attack power that increases your damage by 5. Thats 55 times 70 or 3850. With 5 more points of damage per attack over 100 swings hitting 70% of the time you do 350 more damage. Now lets say you hit more often but you don't have the attack power, like 5% more often, so you hit 75% of the time now. Ok, so you swing 100 times and hit 75% or 75 times for 50 damage. Now 50 times 75 is 3750. By increasing your chance to hit by 5% you increased your damage by 250. So we can see here that adding 5 points of damage to your attack will increase damage over time done by 350, where as increasing your chance to hit by 5% will increase your damage over time by 250. Clearly 5 points of damage is superior to 5% chance to hit. Of course in WoW you hit for more, like 600. So lets say you swing your weapon 100 times and hit 70 times. Thats 600 times 70 for total damage done, or 42000 damage. Lets pretend attack power adds 25 damage points so 625 times 70, or 43750. Now pretend you don't have attack power but have +hit of say 5%. Thats 600 times 75, or 45000. So 5% +hit increases damage by 3000 where 25 additional points of damage increase damage over time by 1750.
How much more damage would you need to do to match 5% chance to hit? First divide 45000 by 70, ~643. So, you would need to add 43 damage to your minimum hits to make up for 5% better chance to hit (over 100 hits). If you hit for 600 damage 100% of 100 swings you'd do 60000 damage. To do that much damage hitting 70% of the time you'd have to hit for ~857 each time. As you can see hit rating is more important than AP. It will increase your damage over time by a lot.
Post by
107997
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Post by
Joltacks
Napkin math. Nice. It isn't terrible, it makes sense. Attack power gems aren't going to increase your damage by that much. Realisticly you might increase your damage by say 43 with AP gems (600 to 643), which in my example is roughly equal to 5% better chance to hit (when considering a battle lasting 100 swings). So if you had to ask yourself, which is better, 5% chance to hit or 43 damage (from attack power) you would know they are about the same. Now if the battle lasted say 200 swings you would get slightly different results. First say you hit 70% of the time but you have more attack power so you're doing 643 damage a pop. 70% of 200 is 140. So you hit 140 times. Multiply the number of times you hit by the amount of damage you do per successful hit (140 times 643). That equals 90020 damage. Now say you lose your attack power bonus but gain a hit rating bonus of 5%. You'll now hit 75% of the 200 swings you take with 600 damage a pop. 75% of 200 is 150. Multiply the times you hit by your damage (150 times 600) and you get 90000 damage. A damage difference of about 20. So, apparently 43 damage is equal to about 5% chance to hit. And if you divide that up you can say that 1% chance to hit is equal to 8.6 points of damage.
Post by
107997
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Post by
Raelis
Napkin math. Nice. It isn't terrible, it makes sense. Attack power gems aren't going to increase your damage by that much. Realisticly you might increase your damage by say 43 with AP gems (600 to 643), which in my example is roughly equal to 5% better chance to hit (when considering a battle lasting 100 swings). So if you had to ask yourself, which is better, 5% chance to hit or 43 damage (from attack power) you would know they are about the same. Now if the battle lasted say 200 swings you would get slightly different results. First say you hit 70% of the time but you have more attack power so you're doing 643 damage a pop. 70% of 200 is 140. So you hit 140 times. Multiply the number of times you hit by the amount of damage you do per successful hit (140 times 643). That equals 90020 damage. Now say you lose your attack power bonus but gain a hit rating bonus of 5%. You'll now hit 75% of the 200 swings you take with 600 damage a pop. 75% of 200 is 150. Multiply the times you hit by your damage (150 times 600) and you get 90000 damage. A damage difference of about 20. So, apparently 43 damage is equal to about 5% chance to hit. And if you divide that up you can say that 1% chance to hit is equal to 8.6 points of damage.
Where did you pull 43 dps increase with AP gems from? I really don't see where this number came from? You also fail to calculate that the more you hit means the more combat potency procs you will have and result in higher yellow damage too, something that AP does nothing for.
Post by
Joltacks
454-557
speed 2.57
DPS 196.6
58 AP = 11 more damage, not DPS forget about DPS.
So add 11 to 454 = 465
115 hit rating = 7.29% plus chance to hit
7.29% divided by 115 is .063%
58 times .063% is 3.65%
1% is approx 8.6 damage
8.6 x 3.65% = 31.39 damage
So, 58 AP is +11 damage while 58 hit rating is +31 damage(roughly).
Ignoring crit, expertise, potency, yellow damage, and only looking at white damage is what I'm talking about here.
So, what I'm saying now is that 58 ap will boost your minimum hits by 11 damage. Example: your minimum hits do 454 damage without attack power. With 58 more attack power your hits now minimally hit for 465. Now say you attack 100 times with just a MH doing 465 damage every hit(no more no less). If you hit every time you'd do 46500 damage total.
Now lets say you don't hit every time. Lets say you hit 70% of the time. You'll hit 70 times. You did less damage because you hit less often. 32550 is your total damage. Make sense? Makes sense to me.
Anyway. Now lets take away our attack power bonus of 58 ap. Our minimum hits will be down to 454 now. Say we attack 100 times just with the MH. If we don't miss once our total damage will be 45400.
45400 is less than 46500. The first total is damage done without a small AP bonus. The second number is with a small AP bonus. Obviously AP will increase damage over time. So 58 AP increased our damage done by 1100.
Now with no AP and no hit rating. We attack 100 times. We hit 70% of the time. We land 70 attacks. We do 454 damage per attack. We do a total of 31780 damage. This is the least amount of damage done so far.
Okay, now lets add some hit rating to our attacks. We'll add 58 hit rating. We added 58 AP before, but now we want to see if 58 hit rating is better. So heres where we compare. With 58 hit rating we hit 3.65% more often. Meaning we hit 73.65% of the time. Now lets say we attack 100 times. We'll hit 73 times bringing our total damage to 33142.
33142 is total damage done over 100 attacks with no AP and 58 hit rating.
32550 is total damage done over 100 attacks with 58 AP and no hit rating.
So here we can see that 58 points of hit rating will do more damage than 58 AP. A difference of 592, in favor of hit rating.
Hope that clears things up a bit.
Post by
Raelis
Ignoring your wrong mathamatical formulas, the only thing your post clears up is that you don't really understand what you are talking about and putting bogus stats together in a failed effort to make any sense at all.
First where you go wrong is that it takes 14 ap to increase your dps by 1 point. That's it, there is no other complex formula other than x AP/14= y DPS increase.
Second, what I really want to know is where is this hitting 70% of your attacks coming from? The base chance to miss a lvl 73 boss is 28% or 72% chance to hit. With the Precesion talent, a rogue's base chance to miss a lvl 73 boss is now 23% making the hit cap (eliminating chance to miss) 363 hit rating.
To calculate the effect that 115 (the random number you used earlier) has you take 363 and subtract 115 resulting in you being 248 points closer to the hit cap. Taking 248 and dividing it by 15.77 gives you a new base chance to miss of 15.73% or you are now hiting 84.27% of your white attacks.
A thirdly, You are wrong in your assumption that ap and hit rating are the same value on an items budget. It is 1 hit = 1 haste rating = 1 agi = 1 crit rating =
2
ap only when calculating item level. (I am certainly not claiming that they are all of equivilant value to a rogue.
Post by
Joltacks
Okay. DPS isn't part of it. I said 58 AP will increase your minimum
damage by 11. Not your DPS by 11.
I used 70% because it is roughly how often a rogue hits. 72% is a
little more exact. But you missed the point. I was trying to show the
value of 1 hit rating vs 1 AP. You get more damage from 1 hit rating
then ya do from 1 AP point.
But what really is a question is what gem to use when you're below
the hit cap. Is it 363 or 364 cause I've heard both?... Back to the
gem question. Speaking in terms of rare/blue gems you would ask
yourself, whats a better stat?: 16 AP or 8 hit rating? You'd have to
do more math to find out.
So, to do that we go like this:
1 AP adds .189 to your minimum damage.
1 hit rating increases your chance to hit by .063%
Now, we want to know if 16 AP is better than 8 hit or not.
So lets say your minimum damage is 454. (Not DPS)
16 AP will increase 454 by 3. New minimum damage is 457.
Okay, now we'll say we attack 200 times and hit 72% of the time.
Thats 144 hits. We did 65808 damage.
8 hit rating won't increase your damage. It will increase your chance
to hit. 8 hit rating increases your chance to hit by .5%
So you attack 200 times and hit 72.5% of the time. Each of your
successful attacks does 454 damage. You hit 145 times. You do 65830
damage.
Now compare your damage totals.
For 200 attacks with 16 AP you did 65808 damage.
For 200 attacks with 8 hit rating you did 65830 damage.
Which gem is better? 8 hit rating.
It increased your damage done by 22.
Now in an extremely short fight, 16 AP is going to be better.
Hit rating shines in long fights.
Post by
107997
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Post by
SBMrClean
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