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[Rogue] Hit Rating, what is that?
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Post by
83475
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73066
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173494
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Post by
Feanora
To actually prove the difference in hit rating compared to other stats, shouldn't the stats they have be in different amounts. Take the stacking of hit in comparison to stacking agility and then see which one comes out on top, or where there is a balance point to the whole hit vs agi stacking. It's obvious that if they have even stats but one has more hit they will do more damage.
Every stat is valuable for rogues. Obviously if you have two rogues with equal AP, crit, expertise, haste, etc. and different hit ratings, the one with more hit will come out on top, but as soon as you dip below the surface of ideal comparisons, then these examples will really not prove anything, unless you have a spreadsheet or another tool able to summarize a rogue's entire gearset at once.
Anyway, not to be rude, but the OP seems rather disjointed to me, almost as though it were copy-pasted in pieces from elsewhere, and more importantly, I don't really see what the poster is trying to accomplish other than demonstrating that hit rating decreases your chance to miss. Perhaps it's merely going over my head, but any discussion on why hit is a worthwhile stat, or more or less important than others, is lost on me from reading that.
Post by
yavn
I have heard you cap yellow attacks at lower hit than white attacks. What % is that?
All combat parameters like crit, miss and dodge are based on relative values of Weapon Skill and Defense skill. For mobs their skill is 5*level. Miss chance for special attacks vs. same level target (assuming maxed out skills, i.e. 5*level) is 5%. Versus boss mobs (level 73) the miss chance goes up to 9% (non-linear increase).
So, v.s. boss mob you will probably take Precision (+5% hit) which leaves 4% gap to close. This equals 4*15.77 = 64 hit rating to cap specials.
How much better is it than agility, crit and attack power until hit capped?
How much +ap/crit/agi would you need to do the same dps as if you had 1% or 10% hit?
Impossible to tell right away. That's why people make spreadsheets to estimate dps boost from various gear configurations. But what we know, and can compute with spreadsheet is weights which give a good estimation of which stats give best dps increase for a particular talent build and gear setup. These values change constantly when you swap pieces of armor, or even get buffs, but fortunately are still approximated good enough to use them.
For combat rogues hit rating indeed tends to be on top, while mutilate rogues favour agility.
WoWwiki, check topics about Hit, Miss, Combat ratings, Dodge and so on.
Post by
Guran
The problem with hit is that it effects white and yellow swings differently because of the one-roll and two-roll tables.
For white attacks, a one-roll table is used, looking like this;
Miss
Dodge
Parry (should be 0% in raids)
Crit
(Glancing)
HitWhere the chance a swing hits is 100% - (all of the above).
+hit% (and thus hit rating) reduces the chance you will miss, resulting indirectly in a hit chance increase. A simple formula for white DPS is then;
paper-doll DPS * (72% + hit% + crit% - dodge%) Where the 72% is the result substracting level and dual wield penalties from 100%. Obviously this does not take into account other factors such as poison only being applied on hit/crit swings and certain talents. Poison procs alone pushes hit above crit in stat value.
.
As for yellow attacks (AKA specials) goes, testing has confirmed a two-roll table.
This means that instead of that list earlier, there are 2 checks ingame.
Miss
Dodge
(Parry)
ConnectWhere the Connect gets an additional role choosing from Crit
HitThis means the general yellow attack formula is something more like hit damage * (91%+ hit% - dodge%) * (1 + crit%)91% because you don't get a dual wield penalty for special attacks.
As you can see here, a 10% crit rate is a 10% dmg increase on your average swing, but going from 90% to 99% connects gives the same DPS increase while only requiring 9% hit.
The current game mechanics guarantee that 1% hit will increase your damage with
atleast
1% (the last point with expertise-cap being 1,01%), while 1% crit will give
at most
1% damage increase (going from 0%->1% crit)
In other words,
hit% gives you a bigger DPS increase then crit% regardless of what stats you already have!
.
This is the major reason why you should always gem/enchant for expertise/hit, it's simply far more beneficial then crit. Agi/AP is generally speaking not worth stacking if you don't have the multipliers to go with it. Even after you have capped out yellow attacks hit is very powerful, Although Agility comes close enough to combine for socket bonuses. Stat weights for gear choices is something for another thread.
Post by
Wanderingfox
This is the major reason why you should get expertise/hit-capped, it's simply far more beneficial then crit. Even AP is generally not worth stacking if you don't have the multipliers to go with it.
Umm no. Throwing upgrades away for hit is just downright stupid. Why? Because you may lose 1% hit from the upgrade, but you'll probably be getting 1.5% crit and more AP from it.
As long as your hit remains decent (~200+ or so) you should be taking whatever provides the biggest dps boost, and NOT trying to stack hit (though hit gems should still be used almost exclusively).
The only hit cap you need to worry about as a rogue is the 8% soft cap for specials. After that, you simply don't need to worry about hit (as long as you're using a spreadsheet to ensure the gear is an upgrade), at least not until you're getting over the 4pc T6 mark (though it's typically advisable to socket everything with hit/agi rather than pure hit at this point so you don't over cap).
That said, on an itemization level, hit is better than any other stat. The issue is that it is not always taking up the most amount of itemization points on an item. Quite the opposite actually... More often than not, very little itemization points are dedicated to hit.
In short, you always take the bigger upgrade, regardless of its stats.
Post by
107997
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Post by
Wanderingfox
Edit 2: Wanderingfox, there is no arbitrary number for hit needed. The miss rate for instant attacks on a lvl 73 boss/mob is 9% not 8%.
So it is. It's been a while since I last had to look it up.
As far as the arbitrary amount of hit thing. The reason I said 200 is because that's more or less where I was at when I went into 25 mans. Ya, it's not something you need to have, but from my experience it's more or less where you should be when you can start passing hit for bigger gear upgrades (as it gives you 8% extra hit to fiddle around with without going under the soft cap).
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107997
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140590
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Post by
Wanderingfox
No, that isn't true. You don't need any amount of hit or any stat. If gear increases your DPS, but decreases hit or any other stat, it still increases your DPS. It is an arbitrary number that means nothing. Even if you dropped below 63.08 HR with Precision, if a piece of gear increases your DPS, it doesn't matter.
It does matter though. If you're missing specials you're missing kicks. If you're missing kicks you become a liability to your raid in all fights where you're required to interrupt spells.
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107997
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Post by
Feanora
I think we're veering off-topic here a bit... it's easy to say "just take the biggest upgrade regardless", but in my view the point of threads like this is to actually educate people as to what exactly
will
provide the biggest upgrades. When it comes to hit, and every other stat, one must keep in mind that they all scale differently (incidentally, all rogue stats scale negatively except for armor pen, but that's a whole other thread entirely). Since this thread is about hit, let's take a look at the inflection points.
The first inflection point is the special attack cap, which for a properly-specced combat rogue is 4%, or 64 hit rating. After this point is where most discussions on hit refer to, because it is assumed that any rogue partaking in PvE content will easily be past this point. Just so we're all clear, however, let's take a look real quick at what hit rating around this level entails. Once you are past this level, your special attacks (sinister strike, most notably) will no longer have a chance to miss, and further hit rating will only affect your white damage (auto attacks). The flip side of this, of course, is that below 64 hit rating, your yellow attacks
will
have a chance to miss, as well as your white damage. Note that for combat rogues, a typical damage breakdown will be 65-70% white damage, 25-30% special attacks, and approximately 5% poisons. So, any hit rating under the cap is decreasing your overall dps by approximately 25-30% more than it does after the cap is reached.
The other inflection point, of course, is the hit cap itself, which for a combat rogue is 363 hit rating. Between 64 and 363, hit rating will carry approximately the same value the entire time, although its specific value might fluctuate in relation to other stats. And after 363, further hit rating is obviously worthless, as it will be a wasted stat.
So, what does this tell us? Before the lower (special attack) hit cap, hit rating carries significantly more value than it does afterward. As better rogues than me have proven multiple times in multiple venues in the past, hit rating will nearly always provide the greatest direct boost to dps by budget level of all the available basic stats, even after the lower inflection point. This, of course, means that with a value nearly 30% higher, there is simply no reason to not at least have reached the special hit cap, as hit rating far and away outclasses other stats prior to that point.
As far as hit rating's relationship to other stats
after
the special hit cap, I would refer you to a spreadsheet, or to a
place
where far better rogues than me have already done the work for us.
Post by
107997
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Post by
Feanora
Hit is a linear stat. Each point is equal past 63.08 with 5% precision, but I think you are saying it scales negatively because instants only have a 9% miss rate, but semantics is semantics and doesn't really matter to the context of the discussion.
This post
explains what I mean far better than I can.
Let's be accurate because that last point of hit is only 8% as effective as the previous point. It's the reason why the cap isn't 363, but 362. The last point to go from 362 to 363 is 71% less valuable and the itemization would be better used with agility.
True, but when I think of being hit-capped, I mean the point where it's impossible to miss. Nonetheless, a very good point.
That's off. 65-70% is a bit high and I'm lost as to how you get 25-30% decrease in DPS by reaching a cap vs being 1 point shy of the cap.
Going off my own experience on straight DPS fights (Brutallus, Gorefiend in particular), that's usually what my breakdown is around, and it's been similar for my guildmates as well. And I didn't mean that reaching 64 hit rating will instantly boost your dps by 30%; what I said is that adding hit rating before 64 will have a value approximately 30% higher than it does after 64%. As in, if you're at 60 hit rating, adding 1 will be approximately 30% more effective than if a rogue with 100 added 1. I hope that's more clear.
Except as you mentioned above it was about answering "what gear is better" question which this still does not answer because the only answer to that is, "It depends on what your current gear situation looks like." From a gemming perspective as I stated in my first post, this is obvious and a give me.
Again, perhaps I wasn't quite clear. The point I was attempting to get through was that prior to the lower hit cap, it
is
worth it to stack hit, because of how much more value hit rating has than any other stat at that point. Yes, of course there will be exceptions, but in the long run, anyone with less than 64 (or 63.08, for accuracy's sake >.>) will not have access to said upgrades anyway, so it's just as easy to tell them to stop being retarded and get their hit up to an acceptable level.
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83822
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107997
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107997
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