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Are pallies good for anything in raids?
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114144
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Post by
xaratherus
Are pallies good for anything in raids?
No, they aren't. Blizzard put a completely useless class in the game.
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In all seriousness, it sounds like you've had experience with Subadins (sub-par Paladins). I would present evidence but: One, I'm at work; and Two, this thread is rather like another one in the PvE forums regarding Retribution Paladins specifically, wherein knowledgeable folks presented hard numbers as to why Rets were worthwhile in a raid, yet it was ignored because of the "anything you can do, they can do better" erroneous mindset.
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138218
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Post by
Lucid
I've been playing wow since release as horde. Their uses and roles in raids aren't nearly as clearly defined as others; We've been raiding without paladins for a very long time. So yes, It may make me look uninformed, but I'm willin to look a little stupid if it means I can get some useful information to benefit our raid. For clarification, my 70 raid content has only been full clears of kara/gruul/mag/za (none of which utilized a paladin regularly). We downed hydross tonight and our holy pally played very well. It would seem that the players skill and the fight they were in suited them perfect. So in that regard, I witnessed a great pally healer and likely many of your issues are correct as to the person playing the pally.
Here's what I've taken away from those of you who provided me with helpful advice.
Imp judge of righteous is better then it looks
Pallies synergize well with each other (one by itself isnt terribly great)
Overgearing is hurting the prot paladins mana
As for a few comments.
1. DPS Meters
I do not follow dps meters as a reflection of capability, its just numbers. But they tell you whats going on. As raid leader i need to know what's going on. I need to be able to click a warlock and see "Seed of Corruption : 0 damage" and correct that warlock into using SoC as needed. I'm never expecting ret pallies to top damage meters. Addtionally I'm a bit confused as to how some of you may suggest pallies do really good x dps in raids (but are against using damage meters to provide said info).
2. , this thread is rather like another one in the PvE forums... ...yet it was ignored...
Instead of suggesting I have an irreversible mindset on the matter (in a post where I ask for some advice) could I instead get a link for this post?
3. "By the way I m a Tankading and MT in my T6 guild, and with your Kara example I can tell you that I tank it alone without an OTand with 2 healers"
I don't doubt it, and it probably doesn't break a sweat for ya. Pally tanks seem to be tailored to dealing with trash or lots of mobs that don't hit that hard (in your case, mobs in kara must hit fairly weak against your t6). But when it comes to progression fights, their demand for such a wide spectrum of stats from their gear seems to leave them worse off especially at our teir of content.
4."As a ret pally I often get in the top 5 dps in TK, as long as i have an enhance shammy in my group. The WF pushes me from about 700-ish dps to 800-900."
See, information like this is what I find a majority of the time that doesn't help and seems grossly inaccurate. Thats why I made this post. Our 'top 5' kara/badge geared players are pushing, on average, 1000-1200 dps; I can't see how 8-900 gets in the top five and not hitting enrage timers. Numbers like these seem to suggest exaggeration and information I can't base things on.
5. "your guildies suck"
That very well may be true, but very little information is provided as to how to pinpoint these problems. Is it ret pallies using spell damage whent hey should/shouldnt? Healers waiting too long on heals? Prot pallies using mana poorly? Saying that my guildies suck sure make you folks look superior but doesnt give me and basis to work with.
As for the title of this post, It was meant to catch your attention. I didn't mean it literally, though I was hoping for some people to suggest where and how I'm wrong. So for those who provided some advice, thank you for your time.
Post by
Lorkin
I've been playing wow since release as horde. Their uses and roles in raids aren't nearly as clearly defined as others; We've been raiding without paladins for a very long time.
It honestly sounds like you have a prejudice against Paladins playing Horde for so long. That and I think you should read up (outside of this post) on Paladins in general. Hopefully one of the guides can tell you specifically what Paladins should be doing in raids, 10 or 25 man.
But it does at least sound like you're trying to keep an open mind. Maybe its me, but saying something like "I wish someone can tell me why I should bother bringing them" sounds much different than "Can someone please help me with Paladin mechanics on raids?".
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84594
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Post by
Blightman
As a maintank, they lack many mitigation abilities, such as thunderclap/demo shout, requiring another warrior to spec into imp demo and imp TC to make up for this.
This is actually by design. A pally HAS to take a bit more damage than a warrior/druid. Warriors and Druids can gain rage through hitting the opponent while the pally is basically dependent on regaining mana from spiritual attunement and being healed. As the damage is not spiky and within the healers ability to heal it is all ok
Addtionally, it just seems as though they simply cannot take the hits like a warrior can, of equal gear level.
Comparing warrior and pally gear is like comparing apples and sheep. In short a warriors gear requirements are much less than a pally's. They generally get to uncrushable just by getting to uncritable since their shield block adds 75% block while our Holy Shield only adds 30%. So in "equal gear" the warrior is ready to MT while the pally is still crushable. By the time the pally has gotten to uncrit/uncrush and comparable STAM the pally will seems sturdier becuase he will have ahigher passive avoidance and more health
And finally, as a MT, paladins seem to have difficulty generating threat quickly against single targets, when a boss has 2-3 adds, its much easier.
Confused about this. A nekid tankadin can generate about 1k threat using an Avengers Shield pull. The nekid tank can then JoR for about .4k more threat. the front loaded of the threat will go up with spell damage. If the mob is undead/demon a quick exorcism can add an additional 1.2k(nekid). If more fornt loading is needed you can combine a hunter's MD with the AS pull.
Bringing a pally tank to karazhan ussually adds about an hour to our runs. The only time we find paladins useful is AoE pulls, like Jan'alai in ZA, but thats about it.
Not sure how you are setup for kara, but a pally tank should increase your speed. Are you using your pally for mass pulling/AoEing the trash? The bulk of the mobs in Kara are undead or demons which means the pally can use exorcism for more DPS/TPS plus holy wrath (AoE vs undead/demons).
And one more thing, the mana consumption per pull is enormous requiring a *lot* of downtime.
He should only need to remana about as often as the healers do. If he is going OOM during trash pulls then he should be pulling more trash or using less CC, this will get your group can get to the bosses faster. Could you clarify what a *lot* of downtime is? Most tankadins don't have large mana pools and can easily refill the whole thing in less than 30s with any of the max rank water/conjured water/mage table food
As offtank, they can do very little in single target tank encounters except provide some minor healing (which could be mitigated indirectly by pure damage which prot spec doesnt provide any of). Essentially they're dead weight as OT when not needed.
In single tank encounter the pally tank is not an OT he is being called upon to either DPS or OH. A gear switch can make them so-so at either OH or DPS but nothing amazing. This is currently a problem with the class in TBC that looks like it is going to be fixed in WoTLK.
They also seem to have difficulty recalling aggro when its stolen too.
Some more information here would help. Are you talking about fights where the mob is not tauntable? As far as tauntable mobs go, a pally can regain aggro as easily as a warrior/druid, and in some ways easier because their taunt has a greater range.
For untauntable mobs pallys have a trick up their sleeve that neither druids or warrior have, blessing of protection. Just about every mob in the game will ignore a BoPd player. If a pally loses agggro on an untauntable mob he can BoP the targeted player and regain aggro if he is next on the aggro list. I realize that it is possible for a crit to cause a player to gain aggro unexpectedly but for DPS they should learn to watch/manage their aggro some. A threat meter and learning to use their aggro reduction skills(fade/feint/vanish/feign death/soulshatter/indivisibility) is a factor here as well.
Or are you referring to aggro races where multiple tanks are competing to stay in the top X threat slots? These can be harder because the pally generates a sizeable chunk of his threat thru reflective damage. Add in that a loss of aggro will reduce damage input will mana a bigger issue since the healing will drop off.
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89501
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Post by
carpen
Even if you just have one ret pally
Healadins are great to have because like noted above they are efficient. When I am healing I'll often hear other healers call out for innervates when I've still got 2/3 of my mana.
And the argument that a pally tank is useless in a one tank situation is silly. I just bring my healing gear with me and spot heal the raid with flash of light and/or dps with spell damage gear. And I don't know how a pally could slow down a kara run. As long as you have a good second tank you can chain pull all day long. And if a pally is geared well they can solo tank the whole thing, bringing in an extra dps, thus boosting dps, and shortening your run.
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