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Why must we kill our own kind?
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Post by
Magician22773
The 42m abortions link is borked. Now that you've fixed it, I can identify that the subsequent link to their original source is no longer available.
That being said, I wouldn't believe that - the US would probably have similar levels of abortion to other developed countries in the world, which have a higher rate of abortion to the 2nd and 3rd world nations in the world generally. If I take the 1.21m number as fact, and note that that number is about 0.3%-0.4% of the US population, I get between 18-24m abortions across a global 6b population, without factoring in a lower abortion rate in less developed nations. I find that number highly unlikely and over sensationalised.
For the love of God.....
You want sources....I link sources.
Now,
you
decide that the source is "highly unlikely".....I guess your position as a Wowhead moderator makes your view more accurate than than the 59 page, fully Indexed and Sourced report from the Guttmacher Institute?
I will help you, just a little here.
India
Population....over 1 Billion. Three times the population of the US.
Number of abortions in India in 2012......
2.5 Million
.
China
13 Million
a year.
Australia
90k
surgical
abortions a year. No data available on chemical abortions, so the actual number is actually higher. That is nearly 1 out of every 3 pregnancies ending in abortion.
There were 251,200 registered births in 2003. Australian Bureau of Statistics 3301.0 ‘Births, Australia’ released 25/11/2004.
www.abs.gov.au
.
Go ahead...DISPROVE ME. Don't link me your opinion....link me some facts...some statistics. If you don't like the sources I provide, link your own.
When it comes to something as direct as numbers, you should be able to source a official site of some sort with them.
An estimated 21.6 million unsafe abortions took place worldwide in 2008, almost all in developing countries.
World Heath Organization.
A Pro Murder group.
The number of abortions performed in China each year tops 13 million,
CNN
Official enough?
Here, try
this
one.
Post by
MyTie
I'm having trouble with context. If he is saying abortion has killed more people than war, he is
wrong
,
Was I?
Yeah, you are. Even that link doesn't compliment what you said. It says since 1977, more Americans have been killed by abortion than war. THAT I might believe, unless you count the 1977 annihilation of Naboo.
I never made a statement so I have nothing to source.
Would you mind providing a source for that statement?
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
How many in Europe? In Russian? Tell me...
How many wars there have been on Earth? How many have died there?
Also I don't trust what CNN says or any major news chanal. They might be corrupted. No one rally know, are they making their news? No one knows... Are they telling the truth? I doubt that.The facepalms! They hurt!
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Population....over 1 Billion. Three times the population of the US.
Number of abortions in India in 2012......2.5 Million.
As I indicated - a lower proportion relative to population size. Three times the population, only twice the number of abortions, therefore, lower abortion rate per capita.
Australia
90k surgical abortions a year. No data available on chemical abortions, so the actual number is actually higher. That is nearly 1 out of every 3 pregnancies ending in abortion.
Again, proportional abortion rate per capita to US statistics as I anticipated. Note that the morning after pill cannot and should not be considered an abortion.
China
13 Million a year.
So, what policy causes this? Not the issue of legitimate abortion, but rather, the government's one-child policy, which your source readily acknowledges. That is just as legitimate a reason as 'abortion for the safety of the mother', considering penalties associated with breaching the policy.
Now, you decide that the source is "highly unlikely".....I guess your position as a Wowhead moderator makes your view more accurate than than the 59 page, fully Indexed and Sourced report from the Guttmacher Institute?
If you want to take it personally, maybe it is time for you to excuse yourself from the discussion for a while.
Post by
Magician22773
I give up.
One person doesn't trust "unofficial" sources. One person doesn't trust "official" sources. One person wan't to troll with Star Wars references, and one person wants to ignore all the data, and just an insist that their opinion is correct.
The data is easily obtainable, and so far, nobody has offered anything that even mildly refutes what I have linked, let alone completely disproved it. Believe what you want, because it is going to make no difference if I filled a page here with links.
If you want to take it personally, maybe it is time for you to excuse yourself from the discussion for a while.
Is that an official or unofficial suggestion?
If I knew what you did in Real Life, I would be happy to replace "Wowhead moderator" with whatever profession that is, if that would be more appropriate. Because unless that job is Statistical Analysis of Worldwide Abortion Data, I stand by what I said...the Guttmacher Institutes report is going to be a more reliable source.
Post by
Squishalot
One person doesn't trust "unofficial" sources. One person doesn't trust "official" sources. One person wan't to troll with Star Wars references, and one person wants to ignore all the data, and just an insist that their opinion is correct.
I haven't questioned any of the official source information you've provided (note that your original 42m link clearly sourced back to an empty page - follow footnote 3 to the page I'm talking about). As soon as you mentioned the Guttmacher Institute, I haven't questioned that number, because I've verified it myself directly from their factsheets, not the random websites that you're sourcing from. I've taken your official source information broken down by country and used it to support my assertions that it has less to do with the legality of abortions, and more to do with more general government policy. So what part of that is 'ignoring all the data'?
the Guttmacher Institutes report is going to be a more reliable source.
You mean, the Guttmacher Institute that clearly splits out China from its reporting measures of developing nations, just like I did? Or the Guttmacher Institute that doesn't include morning after pills in their abortion measures, like I agreed with?
Is that an official or unofficial suggestion?
An official 'suggestion' would be in a modbox. It's a suggestion, from one forum user to another, that if you're going to start throwing personal comments around as an argument to authority in a discussion about facts, you're getting too heated up and need to cool off for a bit.
Post by
MyTie
nobody has offered anything that even mildly refutes what I have linked
Let me give it a try then, Magician.
China
13 Million
a year.
Fair enough. I'll accept that.Number of abortions in India in 2012......
2.5 Million
.
Yeah, I'll accept this as well.
Australia
90k
surgical
abortions a year.
Ok, sounds good.
An estimated 21.6 million unsafe abortions took place worldwide in 2008, almost all in developing countries.
World Heath Organization.
I buy it. I'll even be generous enough to say that those 21.6 abortions do NOT overlap any of the other numbers, like China (which it likely does).
That's... let's see... carry the 1... 37,910,000 abortions a year. That brings us to this claim:1.28 BILLIONAt the current rate, it would take 33 YEARS to arrive at that number. FURTHER, the numbers that has died in wars has totaled up to 1 Billion, easily (
source
)
What I'm saying to you Magician, is that abortion is heinous. It's awful. It's terrible. ONE SINGLE abortion is enough to argue against. You won't find anyone more anti abortion than me, which is why I argue against you now. There is no need to inflate numbers, or make it sound worse than it is. It invites people to argue against you. If you want to be anti abortion, anti murder, then have the most solid believable numbers possible. Everything else is flimsy. If you want to argue with flimsy numbers, go argue
for
abortion.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Now tell me when this thread turned from War to Abortion?
Dude, your original post directly talks about war, and abortion is definitely a part of us killing our own kind.
What the hell are we supposed to talk about here? The stupid song you linked? You need to learn that once you make a thread, it is no longer YOURS, it belongs to the forum.
Post by
Magician22773
So what part of that is 'ignoring all the data'?
The topic at hand is "What has killed more....war or abortion?"
I still stand by my original assertions that abortion has killed more. I have no way of disputing the counter that I posted, that stands at almost 1.3 billion.
I am not looking to debate the types of abortions:
Note that the morning after pill cannot and should not be considered an abortion.
or the proportionality between developed and underdeveloped countries, or the semantics or government policies that result in abortions.
That is just as legitimate a reason as 'abortion for the safety of the mother', considering penalties associated with breaching the policy.
Those are all legitimate subjects, but they are unrelated to the position I am defending, and would be better suited for a general abortion thread, which I really don't see as necessary, as we have beat that dead horse to a pulp.
That's about it...I am still looking for someone to present some source that disputes my original statement, or to at least stop badgering that whatever source I link is either biased, questionable, or corrupt.
As for taking it "personal"...I am not so much taking it personal, as I am getting frustrated that my sourcing, no matter if it is from a Pro-Life source, a Pro-Murder source, a blog, a mainstream media source, or Wiki...are just being dismissed, and some of those just keep asking for additional sources.
That is the debate equivalent of just responding with "Nun-uh!" when presented with data. It IS frustrating, and it is poor debate etiquette. You should ether accept the data, or provide your own to refute...not just say "give me more, or I still don't believe you"
Post by
Nathanyal
Now tell me when this thread turned from War to Abortion?
Back on the first page, but to be honest you asked "Why must we kill our own kind?", to some people having an abortion is considered to be that.
If you asked "Why do we have wars?", then the thread would have been derailed.
We also kill people in self-defense, it doesn't have to be a war where someone die. Same as pulling the plug of someone on life support. Some people do it to put them out of misery. Some see that as being bad.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Let's calm down maybe?
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
Let's calm down maybe?
I think that is a great idea...
The facepalms! They hurt!
Post by
Magician22773
At the current rate, it would take 33 YEARS to arrive at that number
Well, I'll be!
And if you look into some of the many links that are provided on that counter, you will find that the data they are using for Worldwide estimates is from 1980 to Present...Holy coincidence Batman....that's 30 years!
And, since we seem to be wanting to go back and tally deaths by wars since the Crusades, then I would say it is safe to argue that the actual number of abortions would be quite a bit higher as well, since the data from those counters is mainly using numbers from 1973 or 1980 to Present. Roe v Wade did not invent abortion, it just legalized it. So shouldn't those abortions performed before 1973 be counted in this argument as well ?
Now, I do have 1 question here for MyTie. Did you read the 1.28 Billion counter as a "yearly" number, and not a cumulative one? If that is the case, I can see where you are coming from. But If not, I don't get the opposition.
Post by
MyTie
But If not, I don't get the opposition.
The opposition comes because you can't take statistics gather on abortions performed in 2010, and apply them to 1981. Your numbers rely heavily on conjecture and inference, since the numbers are not actually gathered, nor reported.
Magician, in the end, 2 Billion abortions may have been performed. The problem is, there is no way of arriving at that, or any other number. If you cannot solidly prove something with reliable evidence, it is conjecture and flimsy, and discredits your argument, and therefore the pro-life "side".
It would be like saying:I breathe about 17,000 times a day, and I live about 365 days a year, therefore, I have breathed 1.2 BILLION times in the last 200 years.
Post by
Magician22773
The opposition comes because you can't take statistics gather on abortions performed in 2010, and apply them to 1981. Your numbers rely heavily on conjecture and inference, since the numbers are not actually gathered, nor reported.
Considering the counter only is looking at abortions since 1980, and not trying to estimate the number from the last 2000 years, I would say that it is at least accurate enough for the context of this debate.
Especially considering that no one can offer a definitive number of people killed by war either. I have seen estimates that vary by as much as 20+ million just for each World War.
So yes, the counter is an
estimate
, but is is based on gathered data, and I would argue that since we are talking about hundreds of millions of bits of data here, that even if the estimate were off by 10%, the number still is at least equal to the number (1 Billion) that you sourced as the casualties of war. And the biggest difference is, the abortion counter is ticking every day, every year. Its not like we have a World War happening every year, with no real end in sight.
Again...
context
. the argument is "What has killed more...abortion or war?".
At the very least, neither side can prove the exact number of casualties, especially over the course of history, so some logical estimation is going to have to be accepted, or you discredit both sides, and say that since not every person killed in WWI and WWII received a Death Certificate, their death cannot be counted either.
So, if you would like, I can modify the argument if you like, to "What has killed more since 1973...abortion or war?" If that is the question, then abortion is massively ahead, because without WWI and WWII, the numbers are not even close. And the data would be nearly 100% accurate, since Planned Parenthood's reported numbers alone would likely exceed the numbers killed by war in that timeframe.
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