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Varian is now the official High King of the Alliance
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Post by
Skreeran
Well, he was initially willing to trade resources (I believe it was Durotar's copper he was after), but that was right before the Hammer came in and he tried to kill Med'an.
Did they actually get that far?
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v474/cyberman8/?action=view¤t=WC17p12.jpg
He's one of the best written characters in WoW.Lol.
Post by
Adamsm
I never said that...but you should be able to admit that acting like a spoiled little brat doesn't really scream confidence when it comes to a leader.
Also, Doomhammer wasn't the real Warmonger; out of all of the leaders of the Dark Horde, he was the best of them. He sure as hell didn't deserve to die due to back stabbing from the humans of Durnholde. If he was still alive now, there would probably be a much different Horde: The Wrathgate wouldn't have happened, nor would the Theramore explosion.
Post by
Skreeran
Other than garrosh, did thrall ever do something wrong?
Well, there was his sending Grom and his clan off by their lonesome without supervision to go explore a strange continent (leading to the less than stellar first-impression with the Night Elves and the Warsong's second drinking of Mannoroth's Blood). After that, he kept the Warsong stationed up on the border, where more conflict was inevitable. There was his acceptance of the Forsaken into the Horde, and his long-standing willful ignorance of their actions because they were a militarily valuable ally.
And, of course, his promotion of Garrosh, an demonstrably poor leader (if Nagrand is to be taken into account), to Horde super-commander in Northrend, because of his admiration of his father. I mean, Thrall put Garrosh, a newcomer to Azeroth and the Horde, who'd never fought anyone but Broken, over Highlord Saurfang, Orgrim Doomhammer's sceond-in-command and a veteran of every conflict the Horde had ever been in, simply because Thrall was best-bros-for-life with Grom. And then, even after Garrosh's very obvious warmongering at
every
turn, he goes ahead and makes him Warchief while he goes on his Shaman-quest.
I like Thrall. Yes, you can call him a perfect character, who only has pure intentions forever and always, blah blah blah, goody-two shoes, no one is actually that altruistic, blah blah... But even if his intentions are good, he really does struggle with making the right decisions, and sometimes he makes the wrong one. There is a deep conflict in him, because his set of morals conflict with his people's set of morals. In a way, he really is barely even an orc. He looks like one, and he's learned to act like one, but deep down, he has a very human conscience.
Orc culture is very simple. Always show strength. If your enemy is weak, kill him. If you make a mistake, stand up for it; don't back down, don't apologize. Death in battle against your enemies is the best way to die. Never give in, never compromise.
Concepts like compassion, mercy, deference, compromise, and diplomacy are foreign to Orcish culture, but Thrall, thanks to Taretha, was instilled with them from a very young age. So we see conflict in him. He wants to apologize for the elves that were skinned alive in Ashenvale, because he knows it was wrong, but he can't because apologizing to the enemy, even for an atrocity like that, would be a sign of weakness to his people, who are already resounding more strongly with a more traditional leader like Garrosh.
He knew Cairne or Eitrigg or Vol'jin would have made a better Warchief in his place, but Orcish tradition demanded that an Orcish Chieftain hold that honor.
All throughout the story of Warcraft, Thrall has wrestled with the conflict between the culture his people demand he conform with, and the ideals his spirit holds. Even as Warchief, a role that's supposed to carry supreme power, he was ultimately forced to wrestle against his people, because his power only stretched as far as he could enforce it. That's why he eventually gave up being Warchief. He was exhausted, and didn't want to struggle anymore. He didn't want to be the deciding factor anymore. He didn't want to have to consider how his every action would seem in the eyes of his people, and be forced to make any more choices he didn't morally agree with just to stay in power.
And, ultimately, I think that was a sign of weakness. It was selfish of him to let a beast like Garrosh take over just so he wouldn't have to deal with the stress his position caused him anymore.
So, no, I don't think Thrall is a perfect character who never makes bad decisions.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Making mistakes means something he could have seen happening,
Who would think the warsong would find demon's blood?
The forsaken are pretty much a nessicary cost, or thats what people always make it look like.
Didn't garrosh prove worthwhile there? sure he pretty much @#$%ed up the whole "work together" part of it but he didn't have to retreat did he?
The probelm is, he's never really PUNISHED karma-wise or simply having reality-sets in when he makes mistakes other than garrosh mistake Mk.II . On the other hand, arthas, a guy who made about 1 really evil choice (Burning the boats) Gets turned into the lich king.
Life aint fair, but the guy's gotta pay for his own mistakes once in a while and NOT be a perfect goody-two-shoes ya know?
Post by
Skreeran
I dunno, between Taretha getting all chopped up, Grom dying, the Forsaken uprising (killing Draenosh), and Garrosh going all crazy (to the point of becoming the final boss of MoP), I think Thrall got kicked pretty hard in the karma.
See, I like Thrall, because his struggle is internal. He wants peace, but achieving it turns out to be a lot more complicated than he thought at first, and now he's stuck trying to choose between two moral greys, having to balance between the loyalty of his people and his own morality.
Granted, I haven't read Wolfheart (can't stand Knaak), but Varian tends to be a lot more simple and less conflicted. He wants what's best for his people, but I've never really seen him feel regret or remorse about doing what he thinks needs to be done. Sure, I can understand if he thinks the Horde needs to be broken up for humanity to live in peace. I don't agree, but I can understand why he would think that. But I've never seen him conflicted about doing it. It's just a straightforward thing for him.
I thought Varian was decently written in The Shattering (that's Christie Golden for ya), but everywhere else his personality can be entirely summed up as "I hate the Horde and they need to be stopped."
Post by
Rankkor
Which was interrupted by the Hammer, so that never occurred as he had another of his childish temper tantrums and declared more evil upon the Horde...which had Thrall actually make a very un-Thrall like comment in regards to the Human king.
Childish temper tantrum? He saw the murder of his godamn father and a bunch of other horde races try to KILL HIM. he was just enslaved by ORCS, Would he resent the horde after that? Hell yes! why the hell do you hate varian? He's one of the best written characters in WoW.
Just read it without a biased POV will you?
It was a tantrum, he was attacked by orcs and by the murderer of his father, Boo big fúcking hoo. He needs to grow a pair of god-damned balls. The horde envoys were attacked just as well, but noooooo he conveniently ignored everything to vent his anger at orcs who had absolutely nothing to do with the attack.
So your comment on him being level-headed are laughable at best, he's the second largest rage-a-holic in the whole game, and the worst written character in the game. All of his background is just a watered down version of thrall's past, with some double-split persona (that thank god its been removed, that was really annoying) and a sueish armor and blades that came out of frikking hammerspace magic.
It doesn't matter that he was slaved by orcs and that his father was killed by an orc, THESE ORCS weren't the ones attacking him, in fact, they were attacked too. The entire peace summit was ruined BY HIM. The twilight hammer attacked them, and while Jaina, and Thrall obviously saw that it was a twilight attack, both Varian and Garrosh were convinced that the other side wanted them dead presicely because they're both complete morons.
So, Varian leaves after trowing yet another tantrum that "I've been here to try and make peace with these savages and been attacked twice, I wont be returning a third time". Pffft, first time it was HIS OWN PEOPLE, second time, it was the twilight hammer. Neither time was the horde, but nope, he latches on that stupid stupid excuse to refuse to make peace with the horde because again, HE IS A BLOODY MORON.
But hey, at least he leaves behind his friend Valeera to investigate what happens, and investigate she does, she finds out it was the twilight hammer who attacked theramoore, hell, she helped in a multi-race task-force to raid AQ again to put an end to the Hammer's attacks, so she bloody well knows that the horde had NOTHING to do with this attack. After returning to stormwind, she does informs Varian of this, and what does varian do? What a High King would had done and apologize to the warchief of the horde for calling him a coward and a traitor? (The worst possible insult you could make to an orc)
nah, he just said "fúck it, lets just kill the filthy orcs" and pretended to never hear anything at all. To this day he demands others to apologize to him (Such as when the twilight hammer attacked those sentinels in ashenvale while wearing horde tabards) but when he insults others he never apologizes back (Such as on the Violet Summit, Theramoore summit, Argent Tournament, or hell, any time he gets within earshot of any orc). Others address him by title, but does he bothers to extend the same courtesy? nope, he refused to address Tirion and Jaina for their titles, even though both called him by his. Thrall, an orc, had a bigger sense of protocol than him, as he addressed them both by their respective titles.
If he is a "high king" I'm a god-dammed ballerina-ninja-robot-pirate-zombie-mummy.
Post by
Rankkor
The issue is, that group has been dead for almost 25 years before he saw her again; the fact that he still blames all orcs for what the Dark Horde did, shows he's not willing to let it go....and the absolute worse that he was willing to kill Med'an, not because he was a threat, but because he was the son of Garona was a pathetic act of revenge, that may have crossed over into child killing if he had done it.
Why does the new horde call themselves the horde and name their capital after a warmonger?
o_O Warmonger? dude, this shows you know jack squat. Doomhammer was the best leader the old horde had, because he actually had a sense of honor, he refused to do the monstrosities that created the first horde in the first place, but had the backbone to enforce this honor upon his troops with an iron glove.
As adamsm said, if he was still alive, the wrathgate would had never happened because he would either refuse to allow sylvannas and her forsaken to join the horde, or he would had done the smart thing and slayed Varimathras on the spot before allowing them to join.
Theres plenty of people who still think of both hordes as one. He's not alone in that
Ignorants every single one of them. Thinking that, is like thinking current-day mongolians are exactly like the horde of barbarians led by Genghis Khan, its ridiculous. The current horde doesn't practices demon worshiping, dragon slaving, they don't taint the lands, nor do they encourage the complete anihilation of what they encounter, they don't serve the legion, and they're actually willing to engage in diplomacy and trade, rather than take everything by force.
Best example of this is the actions of the Sunwalkers on MoP.
Plus, medan is one of the worst characters to ever come into WoW alongside Thrall.
While you are correct about med'an, you're dead wrong about Thrall, but of course you proved your lack of knowledge ages ago. Not that I'm expecting you to say anything coherent any time soon.
Post by
Lordplatypus
o_O Warmonger? dude, this shows you know jack squat. Doomhammer was the best leader the old horde had, because he actually had a sense of honor, he refused to do the monstrosities that created the first horde in the first place, but had the backbone to enforce this honor upon his troops with an iron glove.
As adamsm said, if he was still alive, the wrathgate would had never happened because he would either refuse to allow sylvannas and her forsaken to join the horde, or he would had done the smart thing and slayed Varimathras on the spot before allowing them to join.
Look at this from an in game POV people, as far as varian cares, orgrimm doomhammer was a war crimmnal and warmonger.
Best example of this is the actions of the Sunwalkers on MoP.
And yet most orcs prefer garrosh to thrall.
While you are correct about med'an, you're dead wrong about Thrall, but of course you proved your lack of knowledge ages ago. Not that I'm expecting you to say anything coherent any time soon.
Thrall's metzen's favorite character and got shoehorned into a whole expac. You really think he's well written?
Post by
Adamsm
Look at this from an in game POV people, as far as varian cares, orgrimm doomhammer was a war crimmnal and warmonger.Yeah...and to a majority of the Horde, Varian is a rage filled #$%^&*! and a warmonger; amazing how that works eh? However, Doomhammer did the same thing that Varian does now: Worked to keep his people alive and tried to give them the best life he could, since they couldn't retreat to Draenor as the world was dying due to the machinations of Gul'dan and the Shadow Council.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Doomhammer did the same thing that Varian does now
Execept with more warm crimes and less diplomacy.
Worked to keep his people alive and tried to give them the best life he could, since they couldn't retreat to Draenor as the world was dying due to the machinations of Gul'dan and the Shadow Council.
Am i supposed to care? Your comparing Doomhammer, a person who would sanction the death knights and lead an invasion of the rest of the eastern kingdoms. Compare varian, who only wants the best for his people, and hasn't attacked orgrimmar, knowing that it's pointless and peace is a better option, Some people just can't get it that orcs
aren't
victims. The best time sine the dark portal was the time between the 2nd and 3rd wars, while the horde was imprisoned.
Post by
Skreeran
Mmm, warm crimes...
Post by
Adamsm
Am i supposed to care? As you obviously have a thing for just the Humans of Warcraft, I'm guessing no; doesn't mean I'm not gonna try to get you to see that there is more to Azeroth then the original conquerors.
Your comparing Doomhammer, a person who would sanction the death knights and lead an invasion of the rest of the eastern kingdomsConsidering what he was up against, he didn't have a choice. However, as you seem to ignore, he also didn't have a choice in continuing the invasion of the Eastern Kingdoms...since you know: He couldn't take the Horde back to Draenor, as he wasn't willing to commit genocide on his own people.
The best time sine the dark portal was the time between the 2nd and 3rd wars, while the horde was imprisoned.Oh yeah...because putting every last man woman and child of the Orcish Horde in massive interment camps, where they could be tapped to use as slave labor or be put into gladiator combat where they are forced to fight for their lives was just a picnic for them....
hasn't attacked orgrimmar,He was going after Orgrimmar in Tides of War.
peace is a better optionBull plop; Varian hasn't sued for peace; all he does is keep the wars going, after he started the Fourth War following the Wrathgate and the Battle for Undercity...or have you forgotten the part where he wanted to kill Thrall right then and there, even though Thrall had no part at all when it came to the Blight.
Some people just can't get it that orcs aren't victimsAgain: Bull %^&*. They were corrupted by Kil'Jaeden, and Gul'dan sold out his own race for power...yeah, that's not being victimized at all /roll eyes
Post by
Lordplatypus
Again: Bull %^&*. They were corrupted by Kil'Jaeden, and Gul'dan sold out his own race for power...yeah, that's not being victimized at all /roll eyes
They fell for a trick, think of the real victims, the innocents of stormgarde who the orcs slaughtered.
Oh yeah...because putting every last man woman and child of the Orcish Horde in massive interment camps, where they could be tapped to use as slave labor or be put into gladiator combat where they are forced to fight for their lives was just a picnic for them....
Beats war.
Considering what he was up against, he didn't have a choice. However, as you seem to ignore, he also didn't have a choice in continuing the invasion of the Eastern Kingdoms...since you know: He couldn't take the Horde back to Draenor, as he wasn't willing to commit genocide on his own people.
Sue for peace? He knows he's screwed but his uptight honor can't let him surender. Lok Tar Ogar! Victory or Death! right?
As you obviously have a thing for just the Humans of Warcraft, I'm guessing no; doesn't mean I'm not gonna try to get you to see that there is more to Azeroth then the original conquerors.
Everyone has their favorites, same here.
It's called conformational bias when you ignore stuff that proves you wrong, We all have it. but then, arguings fun aint it?
Post by
Adamsm
They fell for a trick, think of the real victims, the innocents of stormgarde who the orcs slaughtered....Think you mean Stormwind. And they were used as mooks by Gul'dan and the Legion. While there were some true vile and vicious monsters in the old Horde(Gul'dan, Cho'gall, Blackhand and the original Shadow Council), most of the others were just victims...such as the Frostwolf clan, who was exiled from the Dark Horde because they didn't want to fight and had their leaders murdered by Gul'dan. Garona is another victim of the Dark Horde; born from a rape experiment created by Gul'dan,, then put into magical slavery for her entire life as well as being forced aged....just like a large number of other orc children. Oh yeah, every last one of them were all just so 'evil'.
And then after they lost the Second War, they were imprisoned, after the Grand Alliance seriously considered genociding the entire captured race; yup, those sure were the 'shining' champions of justice...but then again, as seen in the Human history, we know they have a need to conqueror; again, the Arathor's forced all of the other human tribes to band under their leader.
Sue for peace? He knows he's screwed but his uptight honor can't let him surender. Lok Tar Ogar! Victory or Death! right?....Seriously, how many times do I have to say this to you: They could not go back to Draenor, as it was a dying world and returning there would have doomed the entire Orc race...so why in the hell would their leader do something like that? Unless you are suggesting that Varian would do the same if that type of thing came up...and he wouldn't; he'd do exactly what Doomhammer did to keep his people alive.
Post by
Skreeran
Not to mention that, should Doomhammer have sued for peace, his demon-blood fueled Horde would have revolted in an instant. Doomhammer was strong, one of the greatest orc warriors to ever live, but whether it be by a ridiculous number of duels for leadership (which would in turn have left the whole Horde vulnerable as their leadership fought among itself) or another shady killing like Durotan, he wouldn't have lasted long.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Apparently then, the people of azeroth having been invaded my demon-poessed orcs was not the victim?
Post by
Adamsm
No, they were victims too...of Sargaras and the Legion; the Orcs were nothing but pawns in the hands of the Legion.
Post by
Skreeran
Apparently then, the people of azeroth having been invaded my demon-poessed orcs was not the victim?I never said that. I just believe that Orgrim did the best with what he had. His hands were tied in a lot of cases, but his intentions were only for the best of his people. In his case, peace was simply not possible.
Varian is similar, I suppose, in that he does have good intentions, I just find that his emotional baggage gets in the way of him actually doing what is best for his people. In his case (at least, before Garrosh took over), peace
was
possible, and would have been a much better alternative to war.
Add to that that his backstory seems extremely contrived, as well. I mean, his father being killed by Garona, and then Lothar getting killed by Doomhammer, and him being resentful for that? That's good character building. Even him being kidnapped in Vanilla WoW was interesting. I would have even bought into him being sold into slavery and forced to be a gladiator (even though that seemed like an obvious attempt to rip off Thrall, and I think that if you're settting up a character to be the new face of the Alliance, he should have his own story, rather than taking what you have already and just copy/pasting what the other leader had below that).
But the whole spiel about amnesia, and him being split in two by Katrana, re-fused, getting fancy new armor and weapons from Jaina's cabinet (I mean, at least Thrall's armor and weapon have history going for them, even if you don't like anything else about him), then ending up killing Onyxia (which we, um, already did? Twice?). Any then give him the
Conflict Ball
every time he gets within shouting distance of the Horde? With a split personality to boot?
I would have preferred them take pre-TBC Varian and give him to a good author (like Golden), and let them slowly and deliberately develop his character over the course of a few books, rather than just throwing him in the comic series and rushing his story so he can become king again in time for Wrath.
I have nothing against Varian, the imaginary person, but his story is really cobbled together.
Post by
Adamsm
give him to a good author (like Golden),Sadly, Golden is steadily going down the tubes when it comes to the Warcraft Lore....Twilight of the Aspects and Tides of War show that very very much /sigh
However, Varian in Wolfheart by Knaak was better and that was when they finally cleared up his split personality thing.
Post by
Lordplatypus
When i figured out what he was (A gladiator turned leader) I literally headesked.
What? Metzen had such a big thrallgasm that he had to turn someone else INTO thrall?
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